Crisis Clubs - Bury, Bolton etc.

[bluenosey]

Joe Hart's dad has one named after him.

The whole thing stinks, and I doubt they will be the last. There seems to be a strange mix or owners outside the top flight re their intentions ...

Twas always the way. Maxwell wanting to merge Oxford and Reading - remember ? Thames Valleys Royals

What about Stan Flashman at Barnet ? Great name though.

And Notts County, bought by the millionaire that didn't exist - or did I dream that ?

[murf]

Bury 'sold'. Survival?

[forestfan]

Joe Hart's dad has one named after him.

The whole thing stinks, and I doubt they will be the last. There seems to be a strange mix or owners outside the top flight re their intentions ...

Twas always the way. Maxwell wanting to merge Oxford and Reading - remember ? Thames Valleys Royals

What about Stan Flashman at Barnet ? Great name though.

And Notts County, bought by the millionaire that didn't exist - or did I dream that ?

Yeah, the guy who took Sven-Goran Eriksson to North Korea to negotiate an oil deal, after conning his way into controlling an investment bank backed by the Bahraini royal family. It sounds like a dream, but it wasn’t... the craziest thing about it was that he chose Notts County as his English football club to buy

[blahblah]

Joe Hart's dad has one named after him.

The whole thing stinks, and I doubt they will be the last. There seems to be a strange mix or owners outside the top flight re their intentions ...

Twas always the way. Maxwell wanting to merge Oxford and Reading - remember ? Thames Valleys Royals

What about Stan Flashman at Barnet ? Great name though.

And Notts County, bought by the millionaire that didn't exist - or did I dream that ?

Yeah, the guy who took Sven-Goran Eriksson to North Korea to negotiate an oil deal, after conning his way into controlling an investment bank backed by the Bahraini royal family. It sounds like a dream, but it wasn’t... the craziest thing about it was that he chose Notts County as his English football club to buy

Nah, they had loads of history to market....

[forestfan]

Yeah, I suppose they won the Anglo-Italian Cup once... and more relegations than anyone else in English football, that’s notable I guess!

If the conman did just happen to stumble onto the wrong side of the Trent, we can count ourselves lucky.

[blahblah]

Tut tut

As in length of history etc. So did they get more promotions too?

[forestfan]

Tut tut

As in length of history etc. So did they get more promotions too?

Well, they started in the original first division, so presumably have been relegated three or four more times than they’ve been promoted (depending on restructurings, old N/S divisions etc.)

[forestfan]

Bury 'sold'. Survival?

They’ve been given until Tuesday to resolve it, still sounds tight. EFL have clarified that they will not postpone any further matches due to the fixture congestion it would cause.

Meanwhile Bolton’s kids shipped five again after forfeiting the midweek game. Their situation is surely distorting the competition in the division, and the same may apply to Bury if they are able to start fulfilling their fixtures shortly, given their likely lack of experienced pros. It’s something you expect of a seventh or eighth tier league, not a professional one.

Meanwhile, Southend are pointless after five games, having lost from 3-1 up today. But their zero points puts them a relatively comfortable third from bottom! There’s effectively only two relegation slots for teams to avoid in this division.

[Maldini]

Sky Sports News have actually wheeled out a deadline countdown clock and Jim White for the likely demise of two of the oldest football clubs in the country.

[forestfan]

Still no official news on either. If there’s any new hope then I expect cans to be kicked again, but how long can the League let this drag on? It really should have been resolved well before the season started.

[forestfan]

Reports now suggest three fresh bids for Bury, and talks still ongoing at both clubs.

[bluenosey]

Sky Sports News have actually wheeled out a deadline countdown clock and Jim White for the likely demise of two of the oldest football clubs in the country.

Cünts

We're agreeing too much lately.

It's like they're loving every minute. Ooh look, there's Nat Lofthouse, what would he be thinking know and over to Bury to see how the clock is counting down there....it's not a bloody gameshow. Not the transfer window. Not how many hundreds of thousands Alexis Sanchez is paid. This is the present and now. I'm afraid it looks like one may definitely go.

[murf]

There is no choice unfortunately but to kick them out of the league this season. The integrity for the other teams is not right if the resurrected clubs play too many matches in too short a time with a variety of strengths of team as they rebuild/rest/rotate.

Give them a deadline to meet for being allowed back next year (with relegation) - even the FA Cup this season rather than discarding them for ever.

[raoul]

One of two things will happen. Fans with money and a sense of decency/panic will step in and save them, but at a tremendous risk it all goes pear shaped.

Or someone who has been waiting for the last possible moment to get the cheapest deal they can will jump in and offer nothing and no guarantees.

I can't imagine either club will be allowed to totally disappear, but I could certainly imagine one or both will find themselves a few divisions lower and having to fight their way back up.

[forestfan]

Well, Bolton have only missed one game, though they’re distorting the league by not being able to put out a competitive side for that level.

Obviously there would be revived clubs starting down the pyramid but it can take a long time to get back (40-odd years in Accrington’s case, a bit quicker with Aldershot and Wimbledon). Saying it’s the end of football in those towns would be overstating it, though sure it would feel like it at the time. But maybe the League/FA need to work out some sort of “soft landing” system for clubs in this situation so they don’t have to start again four or five promotions away from the Football League.

[jimmy ching]

There has been a dog track in Wimbledon for years? I didn't realise it was Plough Lane....

The dog track and old football ground were 200 yards apart, apparently.

Been to both. They are separate places.

[get_on_my_cocker]

Bury gone. A dark day for English football.

[quizking]

And as for Bolton, they may have had a stay of execution from the EPL having been loaned some money by them (£2M) a while back, which of course they would like back. Not sure that the adminstrator accountants will be bothered by that however, if money has run out for their own fees to be paid then they can and surely will shut down the club this morning - does anyone know any different?
Horrible, horrible situations all over, and there are literally £billions sloshing around the upper reaches of football in this country ... so much for the trickle down effect.

[forestfan]

And as for Bolton, they may have had a stay of execution from the EPL having been loaned some money by them (£2M) a while back, which of course they would like back. Not sure that the adminstrator accountants will be bothered by that however, if money has run out for their own fees to be paid then they can and surely will shut down the club this morning - does anyone know any different?
Horrible, horrible situations all over, and there are literally £billions sloshing around the upper reaches of football in this country ... so much for the trickle down effect.

Again, we can’t expect the top level to subsidise or bail out lower level clubs, just as we can’t expect Tesco to support your local corner shop that can’t cover its own costs, or takes out unaffordable loans to try and expand.

If the PL clubs gave them more money then it would just be spent on higher wages down the pyramid and the results would be exactly the same, just with bigger sums involved. The problem is owners who are not fit to run football clubs, and a lack of control over who gets their hands on them. On the other hand, they shouldn’t ban ambition, and those of us who want our clubs to gamble to try and reach the top level have to accept this as a possible outcome.

[forestfan]

Some suggesting Bolton are getting preferential treatment as the bigger club. Surely they’re just getting the two-week extension Bury have already had, though. And every case is unique as regards the complexity of the underlying finances. It’s questionable whether Bolton’s administrators can fund them for another two weeks anyway.

Hope Bury fans can get a new club up and running quickly, though will be almost a year until they can join a league. (And no, they can’t go and watch Bury Town instead, as they play in Bury St. Edmunds, in Suffolk. They could buy them and relocate them I guess ) Getting hold of Gigg Lane before it gets sold off for development could prove the toughest ask, as it was the complexities of the ground finances that scuppered any takeover.

Oh and as for Steve Dale, apparently no interest in football or the town of Bury before he bought it. Seemingly just saw a business he could extract some money from.

[bluenosey]

Some suggesting Bolton are getting preferential treatment as the bigger club. Surely they’re just getting the two-week extension Bury have already had, though. And every case is unique as regards the complexity of the underlying finances. It’s questionable whether Bolton’s administrators can fund them for another two weeks anyway.

Hope Bury fans can get a new club up and running quickly, though will be almost a year until they can join a league. (And no, they can’t go and watch Bury Town instead, as they play in Bury St. Edmunds, in Suffolk. They could buy them and relocate them I guess ) Getting hold of Gigg Lane before it gets sold off for development could prove the toughest ask, as it was the complexities of the ground finances that scuppered any takeover.

Oh and as for Steve Dale, apparently no interest in football or the town of Bury before he bought it. Seemingly just saw a business he could extract some money from.

Bolton have a 14 day reprieve. Bury had, what, two days ?

Bolton were allowed to start the season, Bury were not.

I haven't delved into the detail but there does appear to be inconsistency, although there may be a good reason for that.

Bury will have to start life in one of the regional Northern leagues. The National League, formerly conference, are very strict on finances (see the demotion of Gateshead last year)

As for Steve Dale, well, apparently he's acquired something like 14 companies, transferred assets from each one and then the original companies have been dissolved. What would you make of that ? He bought Bury for £1. Obviously liabilities there too but just "a £1". Did the EFL do there due diligence ? This all started after previous owner Stewart Day's business went into meltdown. I would like to see the accounts and hopefully, the club own the ground and there is not one of these dreaded clauses to build on the ground (it happened to my local dog track, Hall Green, which is now houses ) All this on the back of a promotion last year. The ex-manger and half the team are now at Plymouth.

I listened to the Labour MP for Bury last night who spoke very well and a couple of very passionate fans, seemingly close to tears. 125 years down the drain. Yes they can re-group but it will take time. Luton have bounced back well. So have Newport. Darlington still in the National North. There must be a few championship teams in a mess, especially those that got relegated from the Prem and the parachute payments have gone.

Bolton are a wait and see. Until recently, they were a Prem side. Challenging for Europe under Big Sam and a constant thorn in the big teams sides for there physical approach. I liked 'em. Fingers crossed they stay afloat but they are doomed to Div 2 even if they do.

Football's balloon could be about to burst....

[forestfan]

Hadn’t Bury already had a 14-day notice period before? Anyway, Bolton are in administration which generally allows a club to continue trading. Dale presumably refused to put Bury into administration. The question in Bolton’s case is perhaps whether it’s right for them to be playing when they’re so far short of having a competitive team for their level.

As for the bubble bursting, well there’s always clubs close to the edge. From Wolves, Boro and Swansea in the 80s, Brighton in the 90s, Luton and others in the 00s (and the ITV Digital crisis of course), and that’s just the bigger names among them. No team has dropped out of the League mid-season since 1992, but I think a few have done from the Conference, often former League clubs. A number of clubs have reformed, some very successfully.

What I did see pointed out is that clubs in other professional sports in the UK go to the wall all the time, and race tracks, dog tracks etc. as you mention - and it barely merits a mention in the news. It’s just the cultural significance and history of English League football that makes it seemingly a special case, and clubs that need preserving at all costs.

[Just A Kiwi]

The whole of football is infested with dodgy business practice owners and greedy agents. The EFL need to do something before more Clubs go.

The only consolation I can muster from this very sad episode is the community togetherness and spirit that tends to surface when you have phoenix club situations.

As for Sky they can do one. Countdown Clock indeed to people losing their livelihoods. A disgrace and whoever thought that a good idea needs firing. And White wearing a black tie rather than his usual bow. Crass.

[forestfan]

At least he didn’t go yellow...

[Kentish Womble]

The whole of football is infested with dodgy business practice owners and greedy agents. The EFL need to do something before more Clubs go.

The only consolation I can muster from this very sad episode is the community togetherness and spirit that tends to surface when you have phoenix club situations.

As for Sky they can do one. Countdown Clock indeed to people losing their livelihoods. A disgrace and whoever thought that a good idea needs firing. And White wearing a black tie rather than his usual bow. Crass.

Well said and the only consolation I can offer is how my club bounced back from the doom and gloom via the vision, hard graft and determination of a few people who stuck their fingers up to the powers that be.

[raoul]

all company accounts are viewable through Companies House. Bury:

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/comp ... ng-history

You will need to scroll down to the most recently filed Accounts which are annoyingly 2017 but they do not paint a pretty picture even then. Since then there was the change of ownership, and it looks like the entire club was mortgaged for a loan. The provider of the loan is a company whose controlling party used to be … a property developer.

Draw from that what you will.

[blahblah]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49493929

I got as far as "complicated leasing arrangements for the ground and car parks". In theory Planning Permission coyld have gained in order to raise the value of the land.......

[raoul]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49493929

I got as far as "complicated leasing arrangements for the ground and car parks". In theory Planning Permission coyld have gained in order to raise the value of the land.......

seems they did a sale and leaseback on all the properties, and on a change of ownership of the lessee there is usually a clause allowing whoever bought this property to cancel the lease or demand new terms. Even if there isn't, the sale and leaseback might be fairly short. The previous owner of Bury had wanted to move to a new ground so there is a chance that the lease only has a few years on it at most. One way or another, the loan provider is likely to take ownership of the ground fairly quickly. Looks like they paid £1.6m for it, so if the valuation in the club's accounts of £5.4m is close to correct, the lender is going to make a tidy profit.

The lender is a company which has one subsidiary company - a property developer.

[Just A Kiwi]

all company accounts are viewable through Companies House. Bury:

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/comp ... ng-history

You will need to scroll down to the most recently filed Accounts which are annoyingly 2017 but they do not paint a pretty picture even then. Since then there was the change of ownership, and it looks like the entire club was mortgaged for a loan. The provider of the loan is a company whose controlling party used to be … a property developer.

Draw from that what you will.

For an excellent account of what has been going on at Bury this article in the Guardian this morning succinctly details all the murky loan shenanigans and nepotism involved.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... cial-ruins

[blahblah]

Tbh, details aren't overly relevant as it was rather obvious as per my post on the 1st Page. O eoulf suggest that all grounds have yo be owned by the Club or Council as this cash (from Bury flats) won't go into the purses of those owed money.

However, the details are relevant to those culpable on what is pretty close to a scam ie get land of the books of the Club then watch the Club go under.....

Obviously St James Park (north) isn't built on land valuable enough ......