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Crisis Clubs - Bury, Bolton etc.

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Zimmerman
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Re: Crisis Clubs - Bury, Bolton etc.

Post by Zimmerman »

A great read from the fabulous Johnny Nicholson


https://www.football365.com/news/forget ... revolution

Currently bottom of the 91 clubs are Scunthorpe United. They turned over a healthy £4.1million in 2018 and yet made a pre-tax loss of £4.3m.

This isn’t sustainable. It appears that without the money of owner Peter Swann, and his reported £340m fortune, it’d be out of business. But this wasn’t a one-off bad year for Scunthorpe; they made a £5.6m pre-tax loss the year before.

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Crisis Clubs - Bury, Bolton etc.

Post by Maldini »

Very good writer. Does a great line in t-shirts too.

This one’s worth a read for you Zim. Image

https://www.football365.com/news/var-de ... -pointless

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Zimmerman
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Re: Crisis Clubs - Bury, Bolton etc.

Post by Zimmerman »

He’s never been a fan of it has he.

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Re: Crisis Clubs - Bury, Bolton etc.

Post by Maldini »

Nope.

Thought it was a decent explanation of why some (like me) will never accept VAR and others (like you) embrace it.

We’re simply more rock n’ roll than you lot.


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Re: Crisis Clubs - Bury, Bolton etc.

Post by bluenosey »

Zimmerman wrote: 29 Aug 2019, 10:34 Why is it about filter down? Why aren’t they self sufficient?

Do Tesco help bail out your local butchers?
Pizza Hut help support your local cafe?

Bury were quite content to mock blackpool in their fight against Oyston. Karma can be a right bitch.

These clubs do get some kickback.
If Wiki is correct, League 2 sides get £470k a season (which is about 50% of Bury’s gate receipts).
This sounds almost Thatcheresque. Were rich and ok so balls to the rest. So league 2 sides get the annual equivalent of Alexis Sanchez's weekly wage. I think that's shit, sorry.

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Re: Crisis Clubs - Bury, Bolton etc.

Post by bluenosey »

Ways to sort.

A wage cap
An agents cap
More money to lower leagues
Copy the Bundersliga

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Re: Crisis Clubs - Bury, Bolton etc.

Post by Zimmerman »

Have you read the linked article?
Bury turned over £4m+ last year.

I know it sounds harsh and callous... but it doesn’t sit well with me that clubs are badly run then we all start whipping round to save them.

They’ve already been in receipt of working family tax credits; this is akin to bailing them out because they’ve blown all their money on a trip to Disney instead of paying off their mortgage.

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Re: Crisis Clubs - Bury, Bolton etc.

Post by Zimmerman »

bluenosey wrote: 02 Sep 2019, 21:24 Ways to sort.

A wage cap
An agents cap
More money to lower leagues
Copy the Bundersliga
Germany has about 35% bigger population than us... yet probably 50% of the amount of professional football teams (if not less).

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Re: Crisis Clubs - Bury, Bolton etc.

Post by bluenosey »

Zimmerman wrote: 02 Sep 2019, 21:34 Have you read the linked article?
Bury turned over £4m+ last year.

I know it sounds harsh and callous... but it doesn’t sit well with me that clubs are badly run then we all start whipping round to save them.

They’ve already been in receipt of working family tax credits; this is akin to bailing them out because they’ve blown all their money on a trip to Disney instead of paying off their mortgage.
I have and I agree with a lot but the debts of some of the smaller clubs are similar to the annual salary of a top Prem player. That can't be what Jimmy Hill had in mind when he scrapped the wage cap in the early 60s.

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Re: Crisis Clubs - Bury, Bolton etc.

Post by bluenosey »

Zimmerman wrote: 02 Sep 2019, 21:36
bluenosey wrote: 02 Sep 2019, 21:24 Ways to sort.

A wage cap
An agents cap
More money to lower leagues
Copy the Bundersliga
Germany has about 35% bigger population than us... yet probably 50% of the amount of professional football teams (if not less).
And you can watch a top game for about £12, can't you ?

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Re: Crisis Clubs - Bury, Bolton etc.

Post by blahblah »

This is worth a listen for those interested https://youtu.be/_-jqi-p9B9Y

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Re: Crisis Clubs - Bury, Bolton etc.

Post by forestfan »

A proposal is on the table to get Bury admitted to League Two for next season if they can sort a takeover. Not sure if those teams at risk of relegation from the League would back that, is there a compromise between that and them having to start again in the ninth tier?

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Re: Crisis Clubs - Bury, Bolton etc.

Post by blahblah »

Where will they play? The ground has been sold and used on a Lease from people who I assume want to build on it.... Any change from the Company who signed those Contracts will mean the foundations get dug?

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Re: Crisis Clubs - Bury, Bolton etc.

Post by forestfan »

I think efforts are underway to secure the ground for football use, the local council are unlikely to give permission for building development.

Anyway, they wouldn’t be the first club to play outside their home town for a spell, if it came to that...

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Re: Crisis Clubs - Bury, Bolton etc.

Post by blahblah »

They could share with Bolton :wink:

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Re: Crisis Clubs - Bury, Bolton etc.

Post by murf »

There's a spare ground going in Coventry isn't there?

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Re: Crisis Clubs - Bury, Bolton etc.

Post by Zimmerman »

bluenosey wrote: 02 Sep 2019, 21:43
Zimmerman wrote: 02 Sep 2019, 21:34 Have you read the linked article?
Bury turned over £4m+ last year.

I know it sounds harsh and callous... but it doesn’t sit well with me that clubs are badly run then we all start whipping round to save them.

They’ve already been in receipt of working family tax credits; this is akin to bailing them out because they’ve blown all their money on a trip to Disney instead of paying off their mortgage.
I have and I agree with a lot but the debts of some of the smaller clubs are similar to the annual salary of a top Prem player. That can't be what Jimmy Hill had in mind when he scrapped the wage cap in the early 60s.
And Leonardo Di Caprio earns more for one film than most people working in the west end could earn in 300 years. Should they all be subsidised by their affluent Hollywood peers?

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Re: Crisis Clubs - Bury, Bolton etc.

Post by forestfan »

murf wrote: 02 Sep 2019, 22:12 There's a spare ground going in Coventry isn't there?
There’s some annoying insects chasing eggs there at the moment, apparently.

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Re: Crisis Clubs - Bury, Bolton etc.

Post by forestfan »

Anyway, Bolton signed nine players on League One yellow tie day, including a couple from us... will probably take time for a complete new team to click, but at least the youngsters get a break from losing 5-0 each week.

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Re: Crisis Clubs - Bury, Bolton etc.

Post by raoul »

We have too many professional clubs in England to be financially sustainable in a capitalist economic system. That has been a simple fact for a long time, made more extreme by the increasing capitalism in that system. Football club costs have risen dramatically, largely due to players at non-PL clubs expecting much higher wages than clubs can afford, and owners willing to pay those wages in a gamble to push up the pyramid either to PL glory and wealth, or at least high enough to sell the club at a profit. If the club has assets that can be hived off (the ground, parking spaces etc) or the club used to advertise the owner's main business interests, the risk of buying the club and taking this gamble is reduced a bit, possibly a lot.

If we want to keep our vast number of clubs, we will need to circumvent the realities of the economics. There are no doubt a large number of possibilities, but it is interesting that Financial Fair Play is discussed so much at the top end where clubs are unlikely to go out of business (for now at least), when it is surely of more relevance at the lower end.

Maybe some new rules would help (probably not, as it is probably too late). Stop worrying about a new owner being "fit and proper" (too subjective) and simply ban them from:

- selling or even mortgaging the stadium, training ground, car park etc
- relocating the team outside the current town
- err, some other things I have not thought out

I have no issue with a rich person buying a small company and seeking to grow it, and therefore I feel the same about football clubs. But our bigger problem, a bit like Brexit, is not about agreeing a way forward. It is the difficulty of the existing situation (e.g. banning clubs from mortgaging their stadium when lots of other clubs have already done so).

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Re: Crisis Clubs - Bury, Bolton etc.

Post by raoul »

reports of a fraud being investigated by police at Bury, dating back to June. Wonder if this is the fraud Dale was recently referring to. Presumably it is the same thing, and I doubt it was him if he is making statements referring to it as his lawyers would surely have told him to keep shtum.

I hope the whole detail eventually comes out rather than being locked up in confidentiality agreements.

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Re: Crisis Clubs - Bury, Bolton etc.

Post by blahblah »

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-m ... r-49568307

Just says reported in June, not by him. I'd be surprised if there was only the one incidence though.

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Re: Crisis Clubs - Bury, Bolton etc.

Post by forestfan »

So, no reprieve for Bury in terms of a League Two return next season. While you feel for their fans, it wouldn’t be fair on other clubs who have done their best to manage their finances, and League Two turkeys wouldn’t vote for Christmas.

Question now I suppose is whether they try applying to the Conference for a route back, or just allow the club to fold and establish a phoenix club in the ninth tier or wherever.

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Re: Crisis Clubs - Bury, Bolton etc.

Post by bspittles »

North West Counties League would be their starting point, I guess. If they are based at Gigg Lane and get similar crowds to recent seasons, that’s probably three or four straight promotions.

Which will really piss off the clubs they’ll be taking a promotion spot away from.

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Re: Crisis Clubs - Bury, Bolton etc.

Post by blahblah »

The League (or whoever) should insist on the Fan involvement in ownership for all Club takeovers, especially outside the Prem.

I was young in Southend and they were taken over by a oh um maybe I'd best not use the crook word, and arguably they are lucky to still exist...

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Re: Crisis Clubs - Bury, Bolton etc.

Post by blahblah »

bspittles wrote: 26 Sep 2019, 20:21 North West Counties League would be their starting point, I guess. If they are based at Gigg Lane and get similar crowds to recent seasons, that’s probably three or four straight promotions.

Which will really piss off the clubs they’ll be taking a promotion spot away from.
I'm sure they won't have the ground as it will be flats...

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Re: Crisis Clubs - Bury, Bolton etc.

Post by raoul »

Bury's latest potential buyer has pulled out meaning they are likely to be wound up tomorrow due to HMRC debts.

I hope when they restart they call themselves Can't Bury Bury.

Good luck to them.

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