Manchester United Seasonal Blog 2018/19 - Ole Ole Ole Ole

[forestfan]

Anyway, stay of execution or Fergie v Forest 1990?

I thought it was Robbins in the Cup vs Oxford.

No, it was against us... 3rd round, 1-0.

[blahblah]

Anyway, stay of execution or Fergie v Forest 1990?

I thought it was Robbins in the Cup vs Oxford.

No, it was against us... 3rd round, 1-0.

So it was all your fault

[forestfan]

Anyway, stay of execution or Fergie v Forest 1990?

I thought it was Robbins in the Cup vs Oxford.

No, it was against us... 3rd round, 1-0.

So it was all your fault

Yeah, exactly... the point was that it was a game where they were actually underdogs, away to a team who at the time called Wembley home more than the current Spurs side do They would be 50 years without a title had we done our job that day!

I think there was an eventually successful manager who famously saved his job against Oxford, it might have been Kendall at Everton?

[blahblah]

Anyway, stay of execution or Fergie v Forest 1990?

I thought it was Robbins in the Cup vs Oxford.

No, it was against us... 3rd round, 1-0.

So it was all your fault

Yeah, exactly... the point was that it was a game where they were actually underdogs, away to a team who at the time called Wembley home more than the current Spurs side do They would be 50 years without a title had we done our job that day!

I think there was an eventually successful manager who famously saved his job against Oxford, it might have been Kendall at Everton?

I thought SAF\fungie survived due to a Cup match, probably a replay as I'm sure it was dark ie floodlights. A last minute Robins 1 on 1? I'm sure Bill\Darby will tell us....

re underdogs: I'd post the MotD of us us spanking them 6-1 could have been 10+, but would just get the 9-0 back and shame Bailey had a good game.

[forestfan]

It was FA Cup third round, so presumably floodlit as it was in January...

https://www.11v11.com/matches/nottingha ... 90-216210/

According to this it appears we didn’t actually bother fielding a team, which made it slightly easier for them

[blahblah]

It was FA Cup third round, so presumably floodlit as it was in January...

https://www.11v11.com/matches/nottingha ... 90-216210/

According to this it appears we didn’t actually bother fielding a team, which made it slightly easier for them

Definitely you lot's fault then

How did you lose to that XI

I did think there was a turning point at a lesser ground, but hey ho it was a while back.... and after my student days in Liverpool where Attack, Ataack, Attack was the cry\demand from the Kop

Does that bring our lil Club with history diversion back on thread?

[liquidfootball2]

Wow

How on earth did Newcastle manage that?

Switched it over on 65 mins, looked all over and had to have the meal anyway, came back and it was all over, they'd somehow managed to lose it after cruising at 0-2 with 20 plus odd mins left and it looking game over.

Just incredible

[murf]

Wow

How on earth did Newcastle manage that?

Switched it over on 65 mins, looked all over and had to have the meal anyway, came back and it was all over, they'd somehow managed to lose it after cruising at 0-2 with 20 plus odd mins left and it looking game over.

Just incredible

All part of the plan to keep Jose there

Agent Rafa is a great field operative.

[liquidfootball2]

Wow

How on earth did Newcastle manage that?

Switched it over on 65 mins, looked all over and had to have the meal anyway, came back and it was all over, they'd somehow managed to lose it after cruising at 0-2 with 20 plus odd mins left and it looking game over.

Just incredible

All part of the plan to keep Jose there

Agent Rafa is a great field operative.

Possibly a plan to keep Ashley at Newcastle too!

Ashley won't be selling to this or any new consortium with the probability of relegation clauses flying about right left and centre

At rock bottom with Cardiff, three points off the third bottom clubs, both of whom have a game in hand, it now doesn't look at all likely that any potential buyer or consortium will simply be able to afford to just ignore the threat, and this won't change for some time to come, and that is even if they do eventually manage to turn it all around.

On United...

There's usually a game which can be a big turning point and this remarkable late late turnaround could just provide that spark

I remember its happened so often before even to the very best managers

Sir Alex was said to be one game away and at Everton i remember Howard Kendall was too, before winning two titles in a three year spell. While this is nothing like that and Jose is a serial title winner already, it could easily be looked back on as a huge moment.

[forestfan]

The bottom three are at risk of being cut adrift, and Rafa may well decide enough is enough before he has another relegation on his CV. They played well in the first half but losing from 2-0 up with 20 minutes to go against any opposition is unforgivable. Feels like a major turning point for both clubs.

It will surely be third time unlucky if they do go down, in terms of coming straight back, and Cashley must be tempted to take what he can get if that happens, otherwise he will be putting them into administration in a couple of years’ time.

[thebillfella]

Phew, where do we start with that one?!!

If ever there was a game of two halves then that was it.

First half there was a lack of energy, no pressing and it seemed like a team given too many instructions to address (self-fulfilled prophecy) defensive flaws and more worried about not conceding than taking the game to the opposition - no offence but this is Newcastle for Christ sake!!! Interesting that Newcastle parked the bus against City and Chelsea but came to OT and went at Utd - a measure of how teams perceive a Utd with no confidence atm.

So in the first half Utd were all over the place and clearly a team lacking in confidence in their own abilities (I wonder were that propagated from? ). Second half it's almost like they decided to throw caution to the wind, upped the intensity and attacked without worrying about the defence with the effect of pinning Newcastle back and looking like the team of (very) old. This is what I/we have talking about for most of Mourinho's tenure - stop stifling the team with pragmatism / criticism, release the reins and put trust in their abilities to attack and their responsibility to entertain.

And what do you know, the players that benefitted the most from this rein-release were Pogba, Martial and Sanchez. Pogba especially was superb. What we don't know is what went on in that dressing room at half time and whether this was a Jose masterstroke, whether it was a combined effort or whether Jose threw his toys out of the pram again and said please yourselves

[thebillfella]

Yet he is still continuing to make those tetchy points - bringing off Bailly after 15 mins and pushing McTominay back there with Lindelof sitting on the bench; then at half time bringing McTominay off and pushing Pogba back there. Can he be any more obvious that he wants another centre half signing?

McTominay isn't a centre half and looked a bit lost at the back when he went back there tbh - if you want him to remain confident play him where he is best and stop using him as a pawn to make your points! The fact is, yesterday Matic looked awful and he should have been the one that came off not McTominay - wonder what Fred is also thinking atm when Matic, McTominay and Fellaini are all getting the nod ahead of him despite Fred being the most energetic (but shortest!!!) of the 4?

I feel sorry for Bailly to be honest - I actually thought he looked decent and probably our best defender for the last two seasons but he is looking right now like a man who has been told he is shit by his manager and is so desperate to prove him wrong that he is panicking every time the ball comes near him and is only demonstrating the opposite (another self-fulfilled prophecy).

FWIW I think Utd do need a leader at the back - we have a bunch or Carvalhos and no John Terry barking orders and organising - but do this behind closed doors not hypocritically in public Jose. And if you don't get that player in the transfer market then you need to work on it on the training pitch not slag them off away from it.

Also don't like how he made the point that maybe Rashford and McTominay are not coping well with the pressure and are too nervous - just keep your mouth shut and get on with the football will you Jose for the love of god! This is all the fans are really after - allow the football to be more free flowing / less stifled, stop pissing everyone off at the club and adapt to the club ethos a little more rather than stubbornly trying to convert it to your own and the take of wanting you out would quickly stop.

Trouble is can anyone see Jose changing his spots? A change is needed one way or another (or some combo of) - either Jose changes his ethos, the club changes it's governance with a Dir of Football to govern the club's ethos, or the manager is changed? My only concern with the latter decision being made now is who is available? If we could get Pochettino then I would go for it; ZZ I'm still not sure of; if we have to leave it to say Carrick as caretaker until somebody comes available then you'd be better standing by Jose and trying to get him to change some of his spots at least!!!

[thebillfella]

I thought SAF\fungie survived due to a Cup match, probably a replay as I'm sure it was dark ie floodlights. A last minute Robins 1 on 1? I'm sure Bill\Darby will tell us....

The Robins' FA Cup goal was against Forest in a night game; ref Oxford you may be thinking of Fergie's first ever game in charge (think Oxford won 2-0?)?

[Zimmerman]

I think people are looking for a story with the Bailly/McTom scenario.

They were 2-0 down to a team that would be sitting in for 80minutes. To me it was tactical to bring Bailly off. The warm/supportive embrace is testament to that (that’s how I read it).

Go to three at the back... supplementing the defence with a denesive midfielder when needed instead.

Second half, less time available, take that to the next level; a floating CM instead doing that role allowing a more attacking player on the pitch to get the offensive gains.

Playing Newcastle (defending a lead) then 4 defenders (or two DMs for that matter) is suffocating your own chances.


I also enjoy your interpration Bill. Whilst losing its because the restrictive tactics (or even too prescriptive)... yet the winning half is down to the players perhaps not following instructions and doing their own thing.

In the first half they were low on confidence because the manager has knocked it out of them. Yet in the second half that’s no longer an issue?

Yes the manager has a certain style, yes he’s petulant and yes he hangs the players out to dry in the interests of self promotion. But sometimes players need to be accountable. They are men. They are highly paid professionals. The goals they conceded, being outplayed and outfought by a woeful Newscatle team is very little to do with tactics and everything to do with desire and application.

The counter argument is that because they are at a low ebb (because of the manager) that the application was perhaps suffering. I can concede that - but I’d still argue the players are a little bit accountable.

Rashford missed a glorious chance. Matic an even better one (was that first or second half), Lukaku probably had 20 touches in the whole game.

[Darbyand]

The forest cup game was played on a Sunday afternoon/teatime but on the 7th January (I looked it up) would have been played mostly in the dark. Here's the goal going in in the middle of the second half iirc

[blahblah]

Yep, that's the finish - not sure where I got Oxford from as they never played in red, and you lot were in white\black...

That is the goal that saved him from the sack (rather than allegedly, maybe etc)?

[murf]

I think people are looking for a story with the Bailly/McTom scenario.

They were 2-0 down to a team that would be sitting in for 80minutes. To me it was tactical to bring Bailly off. The warm/supportive embrace is testament to that (that’s how I read it).

Go to three at the back... supplementing the defence with a defensive midfielder when needed instead.

So why not take McTominay off after 18 minutes instead?? He is basically saying he prefers McT to Bailly in a back 3.

[Darbyand]

@Blah I think as someone has mentioned Kendall had a similar must win game at Oxford for Everton in the early 80s.

Did the Robins goal save Fergie? Edwards and Charlton have said they could see all the good work that was going on behind the scenes and he was never in danger but it's easy to say in hindsight. United were awful that season and the heat was on.

[blahblah]

I think people are looking for a story with the Bailly/McTom scenario.

They were 2-0 down to a team that would be sitting in for 80minutes. To me it was tactical to bring Bailly off. The warm/supportive embrace is testament to that (that’s how I read it).

Go to three at the back... supplementing the defence with a defensive midfielder when needed instead.

So why not take McTominay off after 18 minutes instead?? He is basically saying he prefers McT to Bailly in a back 3.

Wasn't it McTom and Smalling as a back 2\4?

His issue seems to be CB's who can not play out of the back: but then plays Fellaini as a DM, who isn't worth passing to as well as Matic. Matic, Pog and Fred should be the midfield 3, schurrle?

[thebillfella]

I think people are looking for a story with the Bailly/McTom scenario.

They were 2-0 down to a team that would be sitting in for 80minutes. To me it was tactical to bring Bailly off. The warm/supportive embrace is testament to that (that’s how I read it).

Go to three at the back... supplementing the defence with a denesive midfielder when needed instead.

He may have said that to Bailly to try to manage his situation Zim but the only visible tactical change I could see from my seat was to move someone into the back 4 who was perceivably better at playing the forward pass - there was no obvious formation change to 3 at the back on view in the first half only personnel changes (although I didn't have the benefit of replays / after match analysis).

Maybe he intended for McTominay to be a defensive midfielder dropping in when needed but the reality was he was sat next to Smalling and looking extremely uncomfortable.

And as I said, Newcastle didn't park the bus in the whole of the first half they came at Utd with purpose and could / should have been 3-0 up to be fair but for a top save from Dave.

2nd half, yes I agree Pogba was getting forward and dropping in there when needed but I guess this further demonstrates my point - they all seemed to have far more freedom within a framework second.

Whether Newcastle were then trying to park the bus or just being pushed back by wave after wave of pressure depends on whether your glass is half full or half empty I guess (as I accept could be your view of whether than 2nd half performance was down to Jose instructions, players pulling their finger out through pure embarrassment or Jose letting the senior players lead in showing him what can be achieved without all of those said instructions and a bit more freedom to express)...

[thebillfella]

Yes the manager has a certain style, yes he’s petulant and yes he hangs the players out to dry in the interests of self promotion. But sometimes players need to be accountable. They are men. They are highly paid professionals. The goals they conceded, being outplayed and outfought by a woeful Newscatle team is very little to do with tactics and everything to do with desire and application.

The counter argument is that because they are at a low ebb (because of the manager) that the application was perhaps suffering. I can concede that - but I’d still argue the players are a little bit accountable.

Agree with all that, but it all starts / started with the manager. He has to lead / set the example, and manage in-house when the players are not performing.

Fergie was the master of this; we only found out much later on what happened in the dressing room with him (and more importantly his single greatest skill which was dealing with / motivating / mentoring the players one-to-one in private) not at that same moment in public. You don't motivate a player or group of players to give his / their all and be accountable by telling the world media he isn't good enough and needs replacing in the transfer window.

[thebillfella]

Yep, that's the finish - not sure where I got Oxford from as they never played in red, and you lot were in white\black...

That is the goal that saved him from the sack (rather than allegedly, maybe etc)?

I think it is still allegedly / maybe blah. And I think it was this period that educated Utd fans especially that you need to be patient (especially when you can see what he is trying to achieve and the direction of travel is in the right direction). Bobby Charlton especially saw this from within (and while not being an official Director of Football, Edwards respected his council) and I think he was closer to being sacked in the eyes of the media than within the club.

Does the club have that same vision / leadership / direction of travel within now? Not so sure, hence the call from many within the ground especially to bring a Director of Football in to provide some separation from Ed Woodward who isn't qualified to be making decisions of a footballing nature - just stick to the sponsorship deals Ed.

[Zimmerman]

I think people are looking for a story with the Bailly/McTom scenario.

They were 2-0 down to a team that would be sitting in for 80minutes. To me it was tactical to bring Bailly off. The warm/supportive embrace is testament to that (that’s how I read it).

Go to three at the back... supplementing the defence with a defensive midfielder when needed instead.

So why not take McTominay off after 18 minutes instead?? He is basically saying he prefers McT to Bailly in a back 3.

Because Bailly is still a defender.

Jose took a defender off (they were losing 2-0 and would be playing a team without any desire to attack).

Not sure anyone would question that a midfielder is more likely to have better passing capabilities than the average CB.

[thebillfella]

Nope, but not sure anyone would question that a defender is more likely to have better defensive capabilities than the average midfielder.

I blame Pep for this! Defenders now need to be deep lying midfielders that don't head the ball, and goalies need to be sweepers with who can handball in their own penalty box!!!

His issue seems to be CB's who can not play out of the back: but then plays Fellaini as a DM, who isn't worth passing to as well as Matic. Matic, Pog and Fred should be the midfield 3, schurrle?

In games where we need to play a three man mid then yes that would get my vote. But against teams that aren't going to dominate you in midfield it would be better for me if one of Matic or Fred (probably Fred) drops out to allow for a second striker supporting Lukaku (either Martial / Rashford or Sanchez / Mata from deeper) while maintaining a back 4.

A 4-2-3-1 or 4-1-3-2 (which can quickly turn defensively to a 4-5-1 or 4-4-1-1) if you like?

[Zimmerman]

But in a game where they didn’t have to defend, you don’t need defenders.

[blahblah]

A bit like how\where Pep played? Not to mention B Moore, the Kaiser (can't spell Beckenwotsit), Baresi, the very under-rated Gica Popescu et al?

[Zimmerman]

Probably a better analogy is Mascherano playing as a CB for Barce on a permanent basis.

[thebillfella]

But in a game where they didn’t have to defend, you don’t need defenders.

As Keegan or Ardilles demonstrated as managers, you still need some insurance you can't just leave 2 at the back!

[thebillfella]

Probably a better analogy is Mascherano playing as a CB for Barce on a permanent basis.

Indeed, and Yaya before him

[forestfan]

Probably a better analogy is Mascherano playing as a CB for Barce on a permanent basis.

Has Jose now backed himself in a corner in terms of having to do the same thing, until January at least? I can't see how he can start Bailly or Lindelof again, which means Smalling plus (when available) sicknote Jones, or otherwise AN Other midfielder playing there.

I'd like to see him tell Pogba he's playing centre-back until Christmas