Manchester United Seasonal Blog 2018/19 - Ole Ole Ole Ole

[thebillfella]

Sorry. Did he even score in Russia?

Apart from the winning goal in the final do you mean?

Thought he played really well in the world cup to be honest, but then in Mbappe he had a willing runner for him to play those super forward passes he can do and I'm pretty sure he assisted a few goals in that way (certainly Mbappe's goal in the final).

The way Jose has us set up, whenever Pogba gets on the ball and lifts he his to see a willing runner he only has Lukaku to target (and with the best will in the world his first touch isn't his strong point!) as the rest are having to catch up from auxiliary full back position! With France, not only does he have the willing runners to assist but he has the freedom himself to get forward more and I think averages about 1 in 6 for France from midfield.

There is a world class payer in there, but he needs to be in a team given more freedom, and I agree with Zim that he "needs to get back to being a humble footballer and ditching all this celebrity big time jizz". I'm not sure he'll ever get to that point unless he does what Lukaku did and drops that parasite in his ear Raiola who does not act in Pogba's best interests only his own.

Having said that, yesterday both he and Martial had a chance to prove the doubters wrong and didn't take it. As I've said before, it's clear Jose has lost at least half the dressing room and I don't think he'll get it back now. While I hate how football has become in terms of power shift towards the players that is now the reality it seems; managers have to earn respect through man management skills rather than tactics and pragmatism and unfortunately for Jose he has been left behind by the modern manager on this one.

[liquidfootball2]

Pogba is a good player but not a very good one. If given time and space he can thrive, and has at times shown flashes of brilliance, but all too rarely. He seems to find it hard to adapt if taken out of his comfort zone, and perhaps doesn't read the game as well as he might.

In a less competitive league he will look far better, but unlike the truly exceptional stars, Hazard or KdB for example, he hasn't been able to adjust his game to the demands of the premier league. A different style of football where you're allowed far more time and space would suit him more

While he may have done better with another coach, really top players would adapt and show regardless, Hazard certainly did when Mourinho first came back to Chelsea.

Two years of largely mediocre fare, with the odd better game thrown in, is nowhere near what was expected, he's shown he's possibly mentally fragile and as a player some way off the top level.

If he goes they can get decent money, and that maybe far more useful in their immediate future than holding onto someone who is doing all he can to show he's just not worth it.

Hazard only really plays for a new manager anyway - Mr. Every Other Season...

Pogba showed in the World Cup how good he can be when motivated and in the right system. It’s not just down to their own arrogance that you have to build teams around star players, midfielders in particular. If you don’t do so, you’re shooting yourselves in the foot by not getting the best out of your best player. Play them where they want to play, and pick the right players around them to complement them.

Pogba if given time to think and space to operate, something not abundantly available in the premier league, can look far better. Sadly he hasn't been able to adapt and adjust as a really top player would. Two years is long enough to show.

He may have done better at City where the quality around him would create such space and time for him to thrive a little more. If Mourinho is sacked or leaves then I think it far more likely you'll see little or no improvement in Pogba.

He's a good player in the right circumstances but not a good enough player to adapt because he lacks in so many areas.

Couldn't you have applied the same criticism to Ronaldo until it clicked?

Ronaldo was always an exceptional talent, he developed under Sir Alex and got better, he learnt quickly what works and his game moved on.

Pogba is much the same player now as when he signed two years ago, he hasn't really progressed at all in any easily identifiable way, he still seems intent on perfecting what doesn't work and even repeating it more often too.

I find it difficult to see such criticism applying to both, certainly not over so long a period and at a similar stage in each players development, or in Pogba's case, lack of development.

Ronaldo didn't score double figures until his fourth season at United. He was 22yo. Pogba is 25yo now and has yet to score double figures anywhere, so you're right to say he is behind Ronaldo in terms of age.

However, the World Cup showed that under the right coach he can perform to a consistent high level. And this is the issue not just with Pogba, but with all the players, I think it's clear now that Mourinho for whatever reason can't get the potential out of players, so instead his effectively drilled them into a restrictive system. This is really only effective and sustainable for a season before the players become sick of being treated like chess pieces. Hanging players out to dry is something he picked from when they turned on him in Madrid.

He had a decent World Cup even if not a particularly brilliant one for him personally, although he contributed reasonably well to a very good team which did possess one emerging superstar Mbappe, he personally didn't shine nearly as bright.

I have posted earlier on this thread that he's capable of better if surrounded by quality and given the time and space to operate, this isn't particularly new. He can thrive in a less frantic environment or less competitive league. It is true that City have the quality and calibre of player to play a different way and that may have been a better option for him.

Truly top players however will perform under any coach if they show the right application and attitude, they have such ability that they will adapt and adjust as Hazard did when Mourinho came back to Chelsea. Unfortunately Pogba seems to lack both the attitude and ability to do so, perhaps he doesn't quite understand or read the game well enough, he's certainly not of that quality or rank even if he clearly thinks he is.

Whether Mourinho goes or not, there's unlikely to be any real improvement in Pogba imo.

Ronaldo and Pogba - any comparison on stats hardly stands up.

[Tacalabala]

United don't need him to be an absolutely top class player like Messi, Ronaldo. If he can get up to the level of Giggs game in game out that'll be great. Just because Woodward overpaid, it doesn't mean United should get rid because they set a level you can't really expect any player to hit. The attitude thing is a red herring, if he was producing the goods no one would care, and it's not as if he is getting hammered the night before games, now that would be an issue. Again, that's a failure on the manager.

[Darbyand]

I was going to say, was Pogba even that good in Russia?

He didn’t stink the team out and was good enough to keep his position; but that he was it.

Contrast to the Euros where he was dynamic and marauding and looked a phenomenal player.

I think your memory is playing tricks. He was mostly anonymous in the Euros restricted by Deschamps playing him in a holding midfield 2. He was ok at the world cup getting better as the tournament went on. 7/10 in the groups, maybe 8//10 in the semi and final and that was based on putting himself about a bit, winning headers in his own box and getting forward to support the attack. If it takes a World cup win to bring out the best player in him there's no chance he can be arsed for Wolves at home. Hopefully United will learn the lesson of the Coutinho move, extract top dollar from Spain for an expendable player and invest the funds where it's really needed in the team. Wodward is probably looking at a deal to finally get Neymar and Bale.

[thebillfella]

You win and lose as a team - think it's a bit unfair that Pogba alone is getting singled out for all this criticism but that's more about what is happening off the pitch as it is on it.

I've said it before and I'll say it again; Pep would get a tune out of players like Pogba, Sanchez, Lukaku, Rashford, Lingard, Matic, Shaw, Valencia. Whether it is through defensive-minded tactics or poor man-management, Jose isn't. The direction of travel is backwards and I can't see him tuning it around.

[Maldini]

United don't need him to be an absolutely top class player like Messi, Ronaldo. If he can get up to the level of Giggs game in game out that'll be great. Just because Woodward overpaid, it doesn't mean United should get rid because they set a level you can't really expect any player to hit. The attitude thing is a red herring, if he was producing the goods no one would care, and it's not as if he is getting hammered the night before games, now that would be an issue. Again, that's a failure on the manager.

He isn’t and has hardly ever produced the goods though so it’s not a red herring.

If you act like Billy Big Bollocks all the time and then play like Carlton Palmer, people are going to correctly question your attitude.

[liquidfootball2]

Pogba for Bale would be an absolutely top class deal, Bale could be gold imo.

It would be swapping a good but infuriatingly inconsistent and underperforming player with a questionable attitude for a really top drawer one, one who really knows the premier league, has a past record of high achievement within it, and has all of the pedigree pace and finesse that would enable him to be a success in it again.

[thebillfella]

Hopefully United will learn the lesson of the Coutinho move, extract top dollar from Spain for an expendable player and invest the funds where it's really needed in the team. Wodward is probably looking at a deal to finally get Neymar and Bale.

I think it's almost inevitable that this will happen now (Raiola isn't going to let this cash cow settle) and probably for the best that it does. If we can use the money to reinvest in Milinkovic-Savic plus a leader at the back that would be an improvement. That, and a manager that they want to put more effort in for and one that allows them to play 10 yards further up the pitch...

[Darbyand]

Valencia is done. Legs have gone. Should always have been a stop-gap right back anyway but time has made the decision for him.

I tend to agree that a positive invigorating manager would/should be doing better, there's plenty of talent in the squad but looking long-term the club is rotten. Right from the top, the owners, the CEO, the board, the manager, a large chunk of the squad could all go. Scorched earth policy but it's never going to happen. Short-term decisions based on maximising revenues and presumably at some point re-sale value will always hold sway. We keep hearing the next manager will have a clear-out but season after season the likes of Jones, Fellaini, Smalling, Darmian, Mata (sadly) etc are there stinking out the place. We are driving round Norwich ring-road with a bag of tungsten-tip screws on the passenger seat.

[Tacalabala]

This squad did finish 2nd, ahead of great Spurs and Liverpool teams last season so I don't see the need to purge, as Bill said a different manager would do better than this with the same players.

He still lives out of a hotel room for goodness sake, how can he demand loyalty from the players when he hasn't even set himself up permanently locally?!

[forestfan]

So what’s the realistic aim for the season now, Jose or no Jose? Forget the top three, they’ve now given Arsenal and Spurs a five point head start as well.

[Tacalabala]

4th. I still think it's possible, but they need to improve, losing to Spurs at OT was a terrible result.

[Zimmerman]

My memories are of seeing a beast of a midfielder.
United bought him after that tournament for what was a very big fee (at the time)... and I was gutted they had (based on what I’d seen weeks earlier).

[blahblah]

So what’s the realistic aim for the season now, Jose or no Jose? Forget the top three, they’ve now given Arsenal and Spurs a five point head start as well.

Where did Chelsea finish in his last season there? (Obviously last time, as opposed to the first time ) For reference: he was sacked on 17th Dec with 25 points from 16 matches (4-3-9)

[Maldini]

What’s 4-3-9?

[blahblah]

W-L-D, it was 15 not 25 points from 16 matches, why on earth BBC think the win %age is relevant I don't know.

[thebillfella]

Jose loves making points and proving himself right?

Did he play Scotty McTommany at CB when it's clear we have a decent CB better in that position on the bench just to prove to the board that he needed a CB in the summer? Did he take Pogba off because of his bad performance again or did he do it to make himself feel powerful or to prove a point? Is he backing himself because he knows he won't last so that when he goes he can say "I told you I needed a CB and this is what's happened"?

[Darbyand]

My memories are of seeing a beast of a midfielder.
United bought him after that tournament for what was a very big fee (at the time)... and I was gutted they had (based on what I’d seen weeks earlier).

Think you might be confusing with Matudi or the lad at Newcastle now Spurs who had good tournaments. Pogba by common consent was dreadful in Euro 2016. Dropped in the group stages, pilloried after the final. Just one example here:
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.the42. ... 6/%3famp=1

[Zimmerman]

W-L-D, it was 15 not 25 points from 16 matches, why on earth BBC think the win %age is relevant I don't know.

who ever in history presents it W-L-D

[blahblah]

W-L-D, it was 15 not 25 points from 16 matches, why on earth BBC think the win %age is relevant I don't know.

who ever in history presents it W-L-D

I'll wake up soon

It is W-D-L as 4x3 plus 3 equals the 15 points from 16 matches. I must stop watching that Yank rugby with body armour stuff

From the December: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/34670192

And the previous May: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/32580577
including They might also point out that styles of management and play can fall rapidly from fashion. Very few can carry success through different eras and paradigms.

To which Mourinho can point to eight league championships won in four countries.

[Zimmerman]

My memories are of seeing a beast of a midfielder.
United bought him after that tournament for what was a very big fee (at the time)... and I was gutted they had (based on what I’d seen weeks earlier).

Think you might be confusing with Matudi or the lad at Newcastle now Spurs who had good tournaments. Pogba by common consent was dreadful in Euro 2016. Dropped in the group stages, pilloried after the final. Just one example here:
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.the42. ... 6/%3famp=1

Just using the links on Wiki:

Game 1 (Romania)
https://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro/season=20 ... index.html
Pogba was effortlessly dynamic
Played 77 mins (subbed off)

Game 2 (Albania)
https://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro/season=20 ... index.html
With France having lacked any sort of fluency, Martial made way for Pogba at the break and immediately the two-time winners asked more questions of Albania
Benched came on at HT


Game 3 (Switzerland)
https://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro/season=20 ... index.html
The hosts struck the woodwork three times, through Paul Pogba – twice – and Dimitri Payet, but the draw ensured both teams went through.

Dropped for the matchday two win against Albania, Pogba was restored to the starting line-up here and began in thrilling style. He could have easily had three goals within the first 20 minutes, having been switched to the left of a three-man midfield by Didier Deschamps. He faded somewhat after that, but remained the game's most likely source of inspiration.
Played 90 mins


Game 4 (Rep. Ireland)
no mention
Played 90 mins


Game 5 (Iceland)
https://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro/season=20 ... index.html
Pogba had a strong game in midfield and belief levels will be sky-high when they take on depleted Germany in Thursday's semi-final.
Goal and an assist
Played 90


Game 6 (Germany)
https://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro/season=20 ... index.html
Played 90
Another assist

Game 7 (Portugal)
Played 115mins
Especially subdued

[Maldini]

Haven’t United just reverted back to the club they were in the 70’s & 80’s? Pre-Premier League.

A lot of very good players but not a great team and more likely to win a cup competition?

Football is cyclical after all.

[thebillfella]

Even worse, we've turned into Chelsea!

Another reason why there also needs to be a change at the top in terms of a Director of Football or similar - since SAF and David Gill left the leadership that replaced them has forgotten the clubs ethos / values / identity / way that has served it so well.

Having someone in pace to take responsibility for and maintain that common approach and balance between transfer policy and longer term youth development will be just as important as changing the manager - just leave Ed to getting new sponsorship deals. An ex Utd pro from the SAF ear would be ideal - someone who grew up with the values instilled in him while also having the collateral to be able to convince tomorrow's stars to join Utd rather than any other (would Ed Woodward convince you atm?!).

This would be someone who would step in to ensure the rebuilding for the club further down the line rather than tomorrow was as the core of all the decision making - the sort of thing SAF himself used to do with Martin Edwards and Maurice Watkins all those years ago. The sort of person to say don't buy Perisic; let Rashford develop in that role, or if you are going to spend on a stellar signing go for 19 yr old Mbappe with years of development ahead of him rather than 29 yr old Bale who has already made it and got nothing left to prove / win.

Equally, while ZZ may attract today's starts to the club, I think someone like Pochettino would be a more sensible appointment to reinstall the club values in the dressing room and build for tomorrow. Unfortunately I'm not convinced Woodward will see it that way and will continue with the short-termism that has been a trade-mark of his tenure as VC of the club...

[The Real Slim Shady]

All starts from the top, the Glazers need to go and so does Woodward.

Although they don’t seem to act (Moyes, LvG) until we mathematically can’t qualify for the champions league.

[buu1333]

My analysis beacuse redcafe won't let me post there with bad grammar.

We passed the ball so slow and everyone taking too many touches.It took 55 mins for us to pass it faster and take less touches, creating alot more chances after the 55 mins mark but no quality I suppose.

I don't get why we go out passing the ball so slow every game , afarid of the counter attack if lose it?

[thebillfella]

Better effort tonight, but still not overwhelming / outstanding by any stretch.

Rashford was looking hungry to prove a point and Sanchez was lively; Lukaku by contrast hardly moved all night. Whether that is because he's given up moving for the first time forward ball that never comes is debatable (the point you are making buu), but on tonight's showing Rashford should start on Saturday with Sanchez and Lingard either side.

Having both Matic and Fellaini in the midfield at the same time makes us too slow in the build up; much prefer to see one of Fred or Herrera in there instead if going with a 3 man midfield, or better still just have Pogba alongside one and throw Martial on as well (who also looked lively when he came on).

The problem there is that the defence looks lacking in confidence atm (one of the reasons he is throwing Fellaini in there as an extra screen), but quite frankly we are not winning playing boring football so I'd prefer (as is the Utd way) to take a risk and maybe just start playing exciting entertaining football again. Alas, we have Jose...

[forestfan]

“It would be really good for the team if we beat Newcastle”... who would have thought we would hear a United manager talking more in hope than expectation about a home game against a winless team?

[blahblah]

“It would be really good for the team if we beat Newcastle”... who would have thought we would hear a United manager talking more in hope than expectation about a home game against a winless team?

Arguably SAF after Queen Kev's mini breakdown, but I'd have sensed a tongue in cheek...

It all looked rather drab,from the nearly half an eye that I had on it.

Was the XI at the weeekend the tallest for a while?

[Darbyand]

All kicking off tonight. Mirror say Jose is gone after tomorrow, Gary Neville goes on Sky and slaughters Woodward. What a circus

[blahblah]

And Giggs said Jose should stay, Schole says not - even that lot are disagreeing?