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Future of football

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bspittles
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Future of football

Post by bspittles »

I'll admit to being quite despondent about the future of football in England.

Premier League clubs have voted for the TV money to be divided on the basis of finishing position, rather than evenly split between all clubs. More FA Cup replays will be lost (with potential for giant killings and big paydays for the smaller clubs disappearing). A winter break in February, so attractive clubs can earn money by touring abroad.

Even more than now, the big clubs will continue to get bigger. We are already at a point of trying to figure out which order the top six will finish, and which of the others will avoid relegation.

That's not the game I grew up loving, it's just greed. I feel like sticking two fingers up at the Premier League and all the crap that comes with it (including FF).

:-(

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Re: Future of football

Post by Zimmerman »

When does that come into effect?

So the current model of everybody gets x and then the rest is allocated as prize money (was there also an allocation based on number of times shown too)?

So now it’s all going to be completely decided by league position?

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Re: Future of football

Post by bspittles »

It's from the 2019/20 season, and I think it is 65% split by position and the rest evenly. Not to be confused (I think) with prize money, which has always been split by league position.

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Re: Future of football

Post by bluenosey »

bspittles wrote: 08 Jun 2018, 12:31 I'll admit to being quite despondent about the future of football in England.

Premier League clubs have voted for the TV money to be divided on the basis of finishing position, rather than evenly split between all clubs. More FA Cup replays will be lost (with potential for giant killings and big paydays for the smaller clubs disappearing). A winter break in February, so attractive clubs can earn money by touring abroad.

Even more than now, the big clubs will continue to get bigger. We are already at a point of trying to figure out which order the top six will finish, and which of the others will avoid relegation.

That's not the game I grew up loving, it's just greed. I feel like sticking two fingers up at the Premier League and all the crap that comes with it (including FF).

:-(
I agree. I said on the Championship thread that you can pick one of six teams (usually) to win the trophies. The best most teams can hope for is 7th. OK, Leicester won a few years back but that was the Mother of all upsets. You end up with a bore fest processional FA Cup Final, where the Corporates can't be arsed to get back for the start of the second half. TV Money, agents, inflated transfer fees... :evil: Players want a 1/4 million pounds a week, whilst a lot of people are struggling. The gulf between players and fans has never been wider. I don't think it will end though. I'm waiting for someone to get 1/2 million a week...and then complain they didn't get a birthday card.

The TV money has to be split fairer.

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Re: Future of football

Post by bspittles »

As a result of the new TV money split, parachute payments, and "solidarity" payments to the football league will also be reduced (as these are calculated as a percentage of the even split.

Pure greed.

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Re: Future of football

Post by primitive man »

Liking Bluenoseys comments.
Do you not think the sooner a proper European League is drafted the better for the other 86 league teams? Then the top 6 can bigger off. We'd soon get used to not seeing them on our fixture list. At SAFC we already have.
And it would open up the Premier League to a host of potential new champions. We could let the Manchesters etc of this world enter the FA cup, for potential Giant killing purposes, - providing they entered "proper" teams.

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Re: Future of football

Post by liquidfootball2 »

primitive man wrote:Liking Bluenoseys comments.
Do you not think the sooner a proper European League is drafted the better for the other 86 league teams? Then the top 6 can bigger off. We'd soon get used to not seeing them on our fixture list. At SAFC we already have.
And it would open up the Premier League to a host of potential new champions. We could let the Manchesters etc of this world enter the FA cup, for potential Giant killing purposes, - providing they entered "proper" teams.
Let's not kid ourselves, the sooner this happens the worse for a lot of the aspirant clubs - or put another way the 'also ran but better than most of the other premier league' - clubs, and I suppose even some big name championship clubs.

The big TV rights deals will go to where the big clubs play, which will be in the new European super league, as will the TV coverage, as will the publicity media coverage and hype, and an even greater share of wealth besides prize money when all the commercial profits and sponsorship weigh in.

All new investors from the mega rich will want a piece of the new pie not the crumbs left behind. Big money will attract big money but many will get hugely and substantially poorer.

The other premier clubs will be cast adrift and be the permanent poor or starving relations with absolutely drastically less tv money, massively less prize money, substantially smaller crowds, less potential, less hope and no future. They would have to release players, cut wages and slim down the whole operation, any hopes of returning to former glories will be gone for ever in what would be a defining moment in their club's history.

Potential aspirants to any big league in the future will in effect be cut off. There may be a nominal ladder up to the top at first, limited and for a very finite time, a theoretical escape route only, but in effect the trap door will be locked and bolted in no time.

A bleak future indeed would await any but the six, no potential investors would even look at them for a millisecond.

They will be largely third or fourth class with only the club's fans watching or paying much attention to their fortunes.

A type of second class championship (as at least there's promotion now and a feasible escape route) would be born or rather like the current Scottish league with only partisan local interest and noone else even knowing what went on or caring at all.

Atm there is a chance that the likes of Everton or Newcastle could make the jump, very unlikely in the short term admittedly but very much possible in the medium term, the Usmanov connection with Everton could easily still materialise within a year or two or Ashley sell up to mega rich investors, or like Spurs it could happen more gradually, its hardly inconceivable.

The truth is that while unlikely in the short term its not inconceivable in the medium one.

While a European super league does look inevitable. The day it materialises will have consequences, and they're far from good for all the other 86 clubs, maybe some would hardly notice a difference but this is not the case for all by any means, certainly not at the top end anyway.

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Re: Future of football

Post by Zimmerman »

Is it a case of be careful what you wish for?
Any Celtic fans able to add any feelings here? How fulfilling has it been winning a one horse race?

Not that the prem would end up a one horse race, but it would be a race without the best involved.

Obviously all tiers of football can be just as exhilarating to watch from Sunday league up to championship level... suppose it’s just how emotionally attached you are.

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Re: Future of football

Post by liquidfootball2 »

Zimmerman wrote:Is it a case of be careful what you wish for?
Any Celtic fans able to add any feelings here? How fulfilling has it been winning a one horse race?

Not that the prem would end up a one horse race, but it would be a race without the best involved.

Obviously all tiers of football can be just as exhilarating to watch from Sunday league up to championship level... suppose it’s just how emotionally attached you are.
.

People who support any aspirant clubs and want this can't really have thought too deeply on it imo, they just don't conceive the negative consequences or have just missed some very likely and huge downside imo.

Maybe they just want to have a chance of winning, but winning what?

A league hardly anyone notices or cares about.

Winning a lower league would still have kudos as the aspiration to progress would still exist, but I believe the killing of the pyramid right to the top of the domestic game, would mean it's a pyramid structure to nowhere. If the top clubs are in another world, another superleague awash with money and all the TV cash, sponsorship and commercial deals, the rest would flounder and its effects ripple down the crumbling pyramid.
Last edited by liquidfootball2 on 09 Jun 2018, 11:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Future of football

Post by liquidfootball2 »

Zimmerman wrote: 08 Jun 2018, 21:56 Is it a case of be careful what you wish for?
Any Celtic fans able to add any feelings here? How fulfilling has it been winning a one horse race?

Not that the prem would end up a one horse race, but it would be a race without the best involved.

Obviously all tiers of football can be just as exhilarating to watch from Sunday league up to championship level... suppose it’s just how emotionally attached you are.
I've never been supporting Everton when they haven't been in the top tier, in fact you'd have to be fairly old to have done so, early 1950s.

If this happened for the first time in my life they would not just be in the second tier but in effect permanently exiled there.

This would inevitably have an effect where the fan base would shrink over generations until its no longer very meaningful at all as a percentage of its current size.

This would also inevitably be repeated for other big city clubs too.
Last edited by liquidfootball2 on 09 Jun 2018, 11:12, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Future of football

Post by liquidfootball2 »

primitive man wrote: 08 Jun 2018, 20:38 Liking Bluenoseys comments.
Do you not think the sooner a proper European League is drafted the better for the other 86 league teams? Then the top 6 can bigger off. We'd soon get used to not seeing them on our fixture list. At SAFC we already have.
And it would open up the Premier League to a host of potential new champions. We could let the Manchesters etc of this world enter the FA cup, for potential Giant killing purposes, - providing they entered "proper" teams.
For an Everton fan to welcome a situation where you would be consigned to trying to win a league with a status lower than the league you've been in for the last SIXTY-FIVE years with no hope of improvement?

WHY?

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Future of football

Post by Maldini »

Surely as a football supporter winning anything is better than aspiring to finish seventh every season?

I’m an Huddersfield Town supporter and the season we got promoted from the championship was far more enjoyable than last season.


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Re: Future of football

Post by primitive man »

ok so the alternative is hang on to the big six and let them do want they want in the way the money the money is shared out - let them dictate the season break - let them keep winning the domestic trophies - but at least they will be in our Premier League but for how long? I think we agree that one day a split will come but none of us really want it.
Got to admit tho without the big name teams I wouldn't bother with MotD. And wouldn't be arsed to watch European League games even if English teams were involved.
Last couple of seasons I have been mainly attending Div2 and non league games.

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Re: Future of football

Post by liquidfootball2 »

Maldini wrote:Surely as a football supporter winning anything is better than aspiring to finish seventh every season?

I’m an Huddersfield Town supporter and the season we got promoted from the championship was far more enjoyable than last season.
I agree that would have been enjoyable for very understandable reasons

With Everton who haven't been out of their top division since around 1953, you would in effect be talking of getting a trophy for what in effect would be seventh, as the top six are in a higher league and not competing.

In fact winning that best of the rest lower league championship would be their new ceiling. Everton have finished higher than seventh as recently as couple of years ago and finished in the top four in 2005.

In effect the new ceiling would be lower than the positions achieved in living memory.

Not really much of an incentive at all considering they have a history of winning it twice in the eighties, which is in many supporters lifetimes.

It would be a dumbing down of ambition and would represent a bleaker future.

They would still have domestic cups, although whether the big six would compete in them is another point, they too could be even further devalued if the 'premiere' clubs broke away.
Last edited by liquidfootball2 on 08 Jun 2018, 23:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Future of football

Post by liquidfootball2 »

primitive man wrote: 08 Jun 2018, 22:57 ok so the alternative is hang on to the big six and let them do want they want in the way the money the money is shared out - let them dictate the season break - let them keep winning the domestic trophies - but at least they will be in our Premier League but for how long? I think we agree that one day a split will come but none of us really want it.
Got to admit tho without the big name teams I wouldn't bother with MotD. And wouldn't be arsed to watch European League games even if English teams were involved.
Last couple of seasons I have been mainly attending Div2 and non league games.
My answer would be as above post, Everton have been in the top six a few years ago and top four in 2005. Its where you've recently been that possibly determines everyone's position.

To accept a ceiling that would be lower than your recent finishing position is not a very attractive proposition.

I haven't checked but the top six has been achieved a few times by Everton this century.

Update: 5 times sixth or better since 2005, and one run of four out of five years equal or better than sixth

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Re: Future of football

Post by Zimmerman »

Is the winter break just for the big clubs? Presumably they all voted for it?

In reality it’s not much of break anyway is it (half the teams off one week, the other half the following week. If it keeps the players fresh, reduces injury risk, has benefit for the national team, reduces rotation headaches later in the season - that’s all good isn’t it? Granted - most of the above is probably more benefit to the bigger teams (and most teams get an easy run through Feb/March anyway because of cup commitments).

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Re: Future of football

Post by Zimmerman »

Figures for 17/18 season
Image

2.4bn split across the 20 teams (the CL prize fund is/was £2bn... going to be £2.8bn next season)

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Re: Future of football

Post by murf »

Which TV company was it that committed suicide by thinking they could make money by investing heavily in 2nd tier football???

No TV company will want to pay anything for a league without the top 6. The TV revenue (+ sponsorship gaye money etc) would fall away for the other 14 teams and there would be no parachute payment to save them.

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Re: Future of football

Post by Zimmerman »

Assuming that overseas revenue rises, no team will receive less than the £41m they currently do but clubs higher up the table will get a larger share of the extra cash.

So it’s only the additional OVERSEAS money that is to be split based on position. This is quite different to what I assumed the first post had said.

I don’t have any issue with it (as it is), but Arguably it’s the first step on a slippery slope.

It appears this has happened because the domestics income has dropped, if it drops further in future deals (quite possible) the club’s with business plans based on an upward trajectory of income will start trying to maintain their own growth plans (at the detriment of the competition). Whilst it argue it’s fair, you only have to look at what a similar model has done for la Liga.

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Re: Future of football

Post by liquidfootball2 »

murf wrote:Which TV company was it that committed suicide by thinking they could make money by investing heavily in 2nd tier football???

No TV company will want to pay anything for a league without the top 6. The TV revenue (+ sponsorship gaye money etc) would fall away for the other 14 teams and there would be no parachute payment to save them.
This was my point entirely murf, it maybe I think inevitable but the consequences would be truly dire for a lot of the clubs not in that top six

Agree with Zim above, not against the new deal at all.

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Re: Future of football

Post by bluenosey »

Can't we have a table showing how money is split between the 92 league clubs ?

There are 72 other teams you know :wink:

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Re: Future of football

Post by forestfan »

liquidfootball2 wrote: 08 Jun 2018, 22:35
primitive man wrote: 08 Jun 2018, 20:38 Liking Bluenoseys comments.
Do you not think the sooner a proper European League is drafted the better for the other 86 league teams? Then the top 6 can bigger off. We'd soon get used to not seeing them on our fixture list. At SAFC we already have.
And it would open up the Premier League to a host of potential new champions. We could let the Manchesters etc of this world enter the FA cup, for potential Giant killing purposes, - providing they entered "proper" teams.
For an Everton fan to welcome a situation where you would be consigned to trying to win a league with a status lower than the league you've been in for the last SIXTY-FIVE years with no hope of improvement?

WHY?
Exactly. If there was a closed shop league meaning Forest didn’t even have a theoretical chance of getting to the very top, I really wouldn’t care any more. I’d rather have a glass ceiling than a concrete one...

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Re: Future of football

Post by Zimmerman »

bluenosey wrote: 09 Jun 2018, 10:33 Can't we have a table showing how money is split between the 92 league clubs ?

There are 72 other teams you know :wink:
Not in the Premier League there isn’t.

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Re: Future of football

Post by bluenosey »

Zimmerman wrote: 09 Jun 2018, 10:49
bluenosey wrote: 09 Jun 2018, 10:33 Can't we have a table showing how money is split between the 92 league clubs ?

There are 72 other teams you know :wink:
Not in the Premier League there isn’t.
True and the Premier League is all that counts.

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Re: Future of football

Post by Zimmerman »

For premier league revenue it is.

Appreciate there is a tiered system and grass roots etc etc. But sky/bt et al aren’t paying £5bn because Rochdale are playing Oldham.

It’s like West Brom expecting a cut of the Champions League kitty. They are indirectly responsible for Liverpool and United being in it are they not?

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Re: Future of football

Post by bluenosey »

Zimmerman wrote: 09 Jun 2018, 10:56 For premier league revenue it is.

Appreciate there is a tiered system and grass roots etc etc. But sky/bt et al aren’t paying £5bn because Rochdale are playing Oldham.

It’s like West Brom expecting a cut of the Champions League kitty. They are indirectly responsible for Liverpool and United being in it are they not?
but some of the money should be shared between all of the clubs ? Surely it would be a little be fairer to help keep the smaller clubs afloat ? For the price of superstar's annual wage packet you could hep keep a Rochdale or Oldham afloat, or both.

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Re: Future of football

Post by Zimmerman »

They do give some money (yes a ridiculously small percentage of the overall pot) but it’s a healthy amount for the clubs. I remember posting about the Accrington Stanley chairman a couple of years ago. He moaned, but it transpired that they were getting something like £500k from
The premier league gravy train.

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Re: Future of football

Post by Zimmerman »

Found it
Zimmerman wrote: 11 May 2017, 19:42 I'd agree with that FF, makes sense.

Ludicrous that players employ agents and then clubs foot the bill.

As for the goodwill;

Might be pocket change, but it's not insignificant....

http://www.fcbusiness.co.uk/news/articl ... y+payments

Illustration of Solidarity Payments to Football League clubs if new agreement (from 2016/17) were in place now. Based on a % of Year 3 Parachute Payments
FL Championship clubs: £3million/season
FL League One clubs: £450,000/season
FL League Two clubs: £300,000/season

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Re: Future of football

Post by bluenosey »

Backs up what I said. League 2 clubs get Ya Ya's old weekly salary. League 1 clubs gets Ya Ya's old fortnightly salary.

It's an absolute pittance in real terms.

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Re: Future of football

Post by Zimmerman »

And yet you are so opposed to rich countries helping out the smaller ones that they are so very dependent on ;)

Another thing to consider.

Germany (a country 60% bigger than ours in terms of population)? They only have 56 professional clubs in their pyramid. We have 92 plus however many in the tiers below too. Maybe there is something Fundamentally wrong if a £300k subsidy is consider frugal (and less than 5k of your own fans are willing to rock up to support you)?

France has 46
Spain has 40 I think

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