Pep

[blahblah]

Quite an interesting lil piece https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... y-mistakes

[forestfan]

So, he's adapted to the English game now... losing 4-0 at Everton?

Given they have planned and waited for so long to bring him in, he will surely get a second season, but failure to make the top four (and that's what they're battling for now, with the likes of United and Spurs) will put massive pressure on him. He needs a major rethink defensively, as well as a summer to substantially refresh the squad. As one BBC live text comment said, "You can't turn Zabaleta into Iniesta". So it's either revise his approach or bring in a different type, and quality, of player. China is just adding another complication to recruiting the best, along with the European big three and Premier League rivals.

[Tacalabala]

He shouldn't be struggling. It's worth reminding ourselves of the squad at his disposal:

Bravo, Cabellero // Kolarov, Otemandi, Clichy, Stones, Zabaleta, Sagna, Kompany // KDB, Sterling, Silva, Nolito, Yaya, Fernandinho Navas, Sane, Fernando, Delph // Aguero, Iheanacho, Jesus

That squad, with Gundogan out, should get top 4. Ok, the league has been very competitive this season but this lot are quality.

Honestly, I'd flog Kompany now and bring in Van Dijk now. I don't think they particularly need to do much more than that, just manage what he has more effectively. Is Delph really that crap now that he isn't even a consideration? He has to be better than Yaya, and what about Sane, Nolito and Navas??? Criticise Navas all you like but the guy does a job. Granted, they have missed Fernandinho with his suspension but today has been coming for a while.

[blahblah]

I'm not so sure. Go through that lot and who would Spurs, Arsenal, Chelsea or Liverpool take?*

I think it is a bit of a ramshackle group of players bought by seemingly random bods, because they are rated\famous etc rather than fitting into any style of play.

*I haven't included MU as I think their squad is a bit odd\unbalanced etc too.

[buu1333]

I think David Silva has gone on the same downwards path as Rooney. He used to be pass master and a striker dream . But now hardly nothing comes off for him .Even last year under pellegrini.

[forestfan]

There's a lot of ageing players in there, which is one reason it surprised me when Yaya was brought back into the fold. At least half the defenders and midfielders listed above must be over 30? They're Pellegrini's and in some cases Mancini's players, the same group that for 4 or 5 years have shown the pattern of being brilliant for a few games then switching off for a long spell. Pep can't change that overnight with most of the same squad.

[buu1333]

Silva and Yaya have been the spine for too long . Fernandinho is not bad . But they need a new midfield spine. KDB should replace Silva I think

[buu1333]

There's a lot of ageing players in there, which is one reason it surprised me when Yaya was brought back into the fold. At least half the defenders and midfielders listed above must be over 30? They're Pellegrini's and in some cases Mancini's players, the same group that for 4 or 5 years have shown the pattern of being brilliant for a few games then switching off for a long spell. Pep can't change that overnight with most of the same squad.

Ah you beat me to it

[blahblah]

There's a lot of ageing players in there, which is one reason it surprised me when Yaya was brought back into the fold. At least half the defenders and midfielders listed above must be over 30? They're Pellegrini's and in some cases Mancini's players, the same group that for 4 or 5 years have shown the pattern of being brilliant for a few games then switching off for a long spell. Pep can't change that overnight with most of the same squad.

Exactly my point re "buys", and I'm far from convinced Pellegrini "bought" them rather than the Club\owner, tbh.

Yaya was a weird one. I was shocked when he got minutes, and then he became a "regular". Now if he was playing CB, I may not be so shocked, but he hasn't been - and actually played up top vs Leicester.

Kompany has been off the pace for a few seasons, with that Argentine CB picking up Yellow Cards covering for him and consequently taking the flak for always getting booked.

Yes Pep didn't realise what the League was about, but I'm not sure that he knew how over-rated etc the squad is. Given the chance to manage any of the top 6, I would take the other 4 over the Greater Manchester 2. (I know I'd never be given the choice, but you get my drift....)

[Tall Paul]

[buu1333]

There's a lot of ageing players in there, which is one reason it surprised me when Yaya was brought back into the fold. At least half the defenders and midfielders listed above must be over 30? They're Pellegrini's and in some cases Mancini's players, the same group that for 4 or 5 years have shown the pattern of being brilliant for a few games then switching off for a long spell. Pep can't change that overnight with most of the same squad.

Yes Pep didn't realise what the League was about, but I'm not sure that he knew how over-rated etc the squad is. Given the chance to manage any of the top 6, I would take the other 4 over the Greater Manchester 2. (I know I'd never be given the choice, but you get my drift....)

This is why we the Manchester United fans wanted Jose. A Proven winner in the prem league. Any one else and I think we would of turned in to Liverpool. Jose should keep us at the top. And rebuild us well

[blahblah]

If you mean Liverpool from Souness onwards then you have a point, but Klopp's lot are on the rise, imho.


(And I am a Jose fan.)

[buu1333]

If you mean Liverpool from Souness onwards then you have a point, but Klopp's lot are on the rise, imho.


(And I am a Jose fan.)

Yes I meant from Souness onwards.

[blahblah]

If you mean Liverpool from Souness onwards then you have a point, but Klopp's lot are on the rise, imho.


(And I am a Jose fan.)

Yes I meant from Souness onwards.

I thought so, as it was looking like that. Jose seems top have stopped the rot, but and it is a HUGE BUTT: Souness papered over the cracks, with the luckiest FAC Cup win EVER, and arguably Rafa continued wallpapering with the CL Win.

The future needs a better plan than Zlatan.....

Anway back to Citeh: they need so many players and an identity that I almost feel for the multi-millionaire Paul Daniels, whoops Pep.

[buu1333]

Was van gaal CA cup win lucky ?

City just need box to box midfielder. And Ball winning midfielder like kante.

[Zimmerman]

whoooaaaa don't go dissing Raffa.

2 CL Finals (1 win) a second place and an almost ever present in the top 4... all with the very limited funds.

[blahblah]

I did say arguably

[forestfan]

whoooaaaa don't go dissing Raffa.

2 CL Finals (1 win) a second place and an almost ever present in the top 4... all with the very limited funds.

Yeah, he's a good manager... just doesn't quite belong in that super-elite group, otherwise he wouldn't be managing in the Championship right now.

[Zimmerman]

Its an interesting topic in its own right.

How many Elite managers are there (let alone super elite)?



Pep -
Mourinho -
Conte - is he elite yet? 3 Serie A titles and got every ounce out of an average Italy side at the euros
LvG - finished now?
Hiddink - is he still in the game?
Ancelotti - hasn't he only actually won 3 league titles (including one at Chelsea and PSG) in about 20 years most of which managing the biggest clubs.
Wenger - had his time?
Lowe - ever done it at club level?
Enrique - until he does it elsewhere (with other players) is his quality debatable? Pep only had the massively dominant (and reigning CL champs on his cv after Barce).

I've exhausted my knowledge... sure there must be some obvious ones i am ignoring.

Pochettino - is probably the next off the block with the potential to step up in to the elite category.
Simeone - seems to get a lot out of his Athletico team(s)

But is that it, Pep, Jose and Conte (at a push)?

Pep is suddenly looking like he is fallible.
Was his previous success down to the brilliance of the teams he managed (and their established dominance)?
Should he be able to get a group of disparate players working harmoniously?

Is a manager good because he has a good system and gets the players he needs for his system... or because he uses a system that gets the most from the players he has?


Mourinho i think (despite the recent wobbles and question marks) is a truly great manager. Odious, but very good at managing a team (ignoring the Chelsea capitulation). Critics might point to the fact that he has had massive resources wherever he has been... but he has managed those resources well (including the Porto success).

[Maldini]

IMO, Pep actually took Heynckes superb Munich team backwards.

Seems he's doing the same with City but in our more competitive league, it's more noticeable.

[forestfan]

The managerial elite is hard to define and perhaps in a bit of transition at the moment... I know different clubs want different things in a manager/head coach, but perhaps you would define it as someone who would be likely to be a strong candidate for the job at any one of Europe's top five or so clubs.

However, Barca and Real have both gone for club legends rather than proven managers, Jose's stock has fallen a bit due to his repeating third season meltdown, and there are increasing question marks against a couple of the other established names. If you asked a supporter of a top club who they would want given the choice of anyone currently in the game, there could be ten different answers at the moment. Those that have failed at a super-club do automatically drop to the second tier (or lower) though and probably won't get another go at it.

[Zimmerman]

Do the Enrique and Zidane appointments (along with Pep before them) almost adds fuel to the "the manager doesn't really matter" argument?
i.e. Barce and Real are that good (or that far ahead of the competition), that the manager is almost irrelevant?

Liverpool seem to be enjoying a renaissance under Klopp... will it last? Is it the real deal? Time will tell.

"Don't judge a manager until he's got his own players"?
Well, every manager tries to get his own players. Not every team is better.
Some have to win, some have to lose.
More often than not, it comes down to who has the most money.

Managers like Pulis and Allardyce obviously go against that grain.
By hook or by crook... they manage to get their teams punching above their weight.
But its horses for course - you wouldn't want either of them in charge of Barcelona would you?!

75% comes down to resources
25% comes down to:
whether or not the manager can get the players on his side
what the manager actually does (tactics, training) - this might shape the previous point
and a big dollop of luck!

[forestfan]

It's always been about situations to an extent... would Brian Clough and Bob Paisley have been successful had they swapped jobs in the late 70s/early 80s? Possibly not. There's managers who work well with superstars, and ones that get the best out of ordinary players. Man-managers and tacticians. Those who do it with force of personality and those who let the team do the talking on the pitch. There's no right or wrong way on the whole. But there are near-impossible jobs, and also there are managers so bad they would fail anywhere, or keep getting jobs because they got lucky once (see "Crap managers..." thread!)

The "director of football" culture on the continent makes the manager/head coach less important, though he's still the figurehead. Over here it's still the manager who matters in most cases.

[buu1333]

Do the Enrique and Zidane appointments (along with Pep before them) almost adds fuel to the "the manager doesn't really matter" argument?
i.e. Barce and Real are that good (or that far ahead of the competition), that the manager is almost irrelevant?

Liverpool seem to be enjoying a renaissance under Klopp... will it last? Is it the real deal? Time will tell.

"Don't judge a manager until he's got his own players"?
Well, every manager tries to get his own players. Not every team is better.
Some have to win, some have to lose.
More often than not, it comes down to who has the most money.

Managers like Pulis and Allardyce obviously go against that grain.
By hook or by crook... they manage to get their teams punching above their weight.
But its horses for course - you wouldn't want either of them in charge of Barcelona would you?!

75% comes down to resources
25% comes down to:
whether or not the manager can get the players on his side
what the manager actually does (tactics, training) - this might shape the previous point
and a big dollop of luck!

Pulis and Allardyce are old school English managers. Who wouldn't have a clue how to get the best of Barcelona. They know how to set a team up well and have good defence. They don't like to take risk, they play long ball when ever at risk, no matter how small the risk. David Moyes is the same and looked out of depth in Spain. Defensively set up well , but going forward they looked really bad and nearly all their goals came from set pieces.

[buu1333]

But them them managers do know how to stop them from scoring.

[buu1333]

5-0 ,6-0 ,5-0

I guess the prem league is not competitive like the prem league , oh wait

[forestfan]

Well, a sequence of results like this is pretty rare in the English game, but they still only get 3 points for each. The test will come against their title rivals, and in those games where they have to grind out a win when things don't always go their way.

[Tall Paul]

I seem to remember everyone awarding the title to Man City about this time last season after they won their opening ten games.

[Zimmerman]

Was going to say something similar

The nature of this domination is on a higher level this time round though. So maybe it is the real deal.

[blahblah]

It was mentioned on BTSport or MotD at the weekend.