The EPL is a bit #%^* / no it isn't

[trampie]

Nope, but he was THE best player in the Prem in the mid 90s and one of the best Prem players of all time, so if he wasn't world class that doesn't say much for the quality of the rest of the players in the entire history of the Prem.

The standard of the Prem has indeed been rubbish since its introduction, there have been many very good players of course and its all relative but relatively speaking its poor, hardly La Liga standard is it :-
Cantona the best in the Prem in the 90's you say, La Liga had Maradona and Ronaldo [Brazil] in the 90's coinciding with the Prem, Cantona is not even in the same stratosphere as those two.
Since the Prem has been around the likes of Messi, Van Baston, Zidane and Ronaldinho have played elsewhere.
The Prem has had Ronaldo [Portugal] and Bale as standout players but both of those best years might be well be in La Liga.
Cantona's standing in English football tells you all you need to know about English football and Giggs standing as well to a degree.

[TheTon]

Biggest crock of shite I've read on Fiso since the scout vanished!

Cheered me up though, thanks

[forestfan]

Well, it's a fair bit stronger now than it was 20 years ago, even if the very best players still tend to head towards Spain's big two when at their peak. City and Chelsea's money have made sure a larger proportion of world class players end up over here, and UEFA coefficients show it's clearly the second ranked league.

Not sure what sort of impact Cantona would have had if he had been at his peak in today's PL era, he would be just one of many talented but temperamental players as opposed to something unique as he was back then.

[thebillfella]

Not to mention that Maradona was a drugged up spent force for his one post-ban season cameo in La Liga in the 90s before going back to Argentina. Who in the history of football was in the same stratosphere as him in his pomp in the mid 80s (and if you suggest a Welsh player I think there will be a queue of people waiting to rip shreds off you!)?

Do you genuinely believe the likes of Henry, Ronaldo, Bergkamp, Zola, Scholes, Keane, Viera, Schmeichel, Aguero, Toure, Silva, Suarez cannot be considered World Class?

[mikeg13]

The standard of the Prem has indeed been rubbish since its introduction, there have been many very good players of course and its all relative but relatively speaking its poor, hardly La Liga standard is it :-

You are entitled to that opinion, but dont agree with it. The Prem has brought in my view some negatives, but one of them is not the quality of the product, you can cherry pick a couple of clubs from each of the top European leagues, but looking at depth in those leagues to me at least tells a different story, over the Prem years we have had fair few top class club sides from more than just a couple of clubs, that have been as good as in any other European league.
I do watch a fair bit of football from all over, at mo probably enjoy watching German football the most, others would would probably put Spanish, but do get bored by the play acting in most of the games, true sadly its in most, but Spain takes to a whole new level. You get the odd great game in Italian and French football but its general standard is not that high and Dutch club game not same as its international level.

[trampie]

Not to mention that Maradona was a drugged up spent force for his one post-ban season cameo in La Liga in the 90s before going back to Argentina. Who in the history of football was in the same stratosphere as him in his pomp in the mid 80s (and if you suggest a Welsh player I think there will be a queue of people waiting to rip shreds off you!)?

Do you genuinely believe the likes of Henry, Ronaldo, Bergkamp, Zola, Scholes, Keane, Viera, Schmeichel, Aguero, Toure, Silva, Suarez cannot be considered World Class?

With the exception of Ronaldo [Portugal] none of them are in the same class as Messi, Van Baston, Zidane and Ronaldinho nowhere near.

[forestfan]

OK, so perhaps the single best player in the world at any particular point in time has never played in the PL, but that doesn't mean there aren't lots of world class players who have.

[trampie]

The standard of the Prem has indeed been rubbish since its introduction, there have been many very good players of course and its all relative but relatively speaking its poor, hardly La Liga standard is it :-

You are entitled to that opinion, but dont agree with it. The Prem has brought in my view some negatives, but one of them is not the quality of the product, you can cherry pick a couple of clubs from each of the top European leagues, but looking at depth in those leagues to me at least tells a different story, over the Prem years we have had fair few top class club sides from more than just a couple of clubs, that have been as good as in any other European league.
I do watch a fair bit of football from all over, at mo probably enjoy watching German football the most, others would would probably put Spanish, but do get bored by the play acting in most of the games, true sadly its in most, but Spain takes to a whole new level. You get the odd great game in Italian and French football but its general standard is not that high and Dutch club game not same as its international level.

La Liga's strength in depth is epic these days:- with Valencia, Seville, Atletico as well as Real and Barca.

[forestfan]

Nobody here is disputing Spain has the strongest league, just that the Premier League isn't "rubbish"... UEFA coefficients have it clearly the second best, even with the fact that our teams usually don't give a crap about the Europa.

Germany's fourth best team got stuffed 5-0 at home by Moyes's Man Utd. Italy's second best team is spearheaded by the mighty Gervinho... France has two "money" teams and little else. The others barely register.

[trampie]

A quick count up of all the European winners [CL, EL & CWC] since the Prem League has been in existence shows Italy way in front of England but well behind Spain.
So over that timeframe the Premier League comes a distant third, Serie A second and La Liga top.

[murf]

La Liga's strength in depth is epic these days:- with Valencia, Seville, Atletico as well as Real and Barca.

They finally get a 3 horse race and you claim this

Valencia were a mere 41 points off the title this year. The same as Crystal Palace, who came 11th in England. (It was actually Athletic Bilbao who came 4th - hardly going to get the English teams quivering if they meet in the CL next season).

[mikeg13]

La Liga's strength in depth is epic these days:- with Valencia, Seville, Atletico as well as Real and Barca.

Sorry its not for me, if want to see that level of acting will go to see a play, shame as it for me ruins the game and with ability players in that league have no idea why they do it.

[trampie]

La Liga's strength in depth is epic these days:- with Valencia, Seville, Atletico as well as Real and Barca.

They finally get a 3 horse race and you claim this

Valencia were a mere 41 points off the title this year. The same as Crystal Palace, who came 11th in England. (It was actually Athletic Bilbao who came 4th - hardly going to get the English teams quivering if they meet in the CL next season).

Valencia made this seasons semi's of the Europa League losing to the winners Seville, Bilbao was in the Europa League final two years ago and lost to Atletico in the final, Real and Atletico are in this seasons Champions League final and Barca have won the Champions League on three occasions in recent years.
I will take Bilbao to beat Liverpool and Arsenal next season if they meet, Atletico to beat Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea and Real and Barca to beat Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea and Man City as well as Seville to beat any Premier League teams in the Europa League, the Spanish dominance has been absolute this season as well as the majority of seasons in recent times as well.

[liquidfootball2]

The standard of the Prem has indeed been rubbish since its introduction, there have been many very good players of course and its all relative but relatively speaking its poor, hardly La Liga standard is it :-

You are entitled to that opinion, but dont agree with it. The Prem has brought in my view some negatives, but one of them is not the quality of the product, you can cherry pick a couple of clubs from each of the top European leagues, but looking at depth in those leagues to me at least tells a different story, over the Prem years we have had fair few top class club sides from more than just a couple of clubs, that have been as good as in any other European league.
I do watch a fair bit of football from all over, at mo probably enjoy watching German football the most, others would would probably put Spanish, but do get bored by the play acting in most of the games, true sadly its in most, but Spain takes to a whole new level. You get the odd great game in Italian and French football but its general standard is not that high and Dutch club game not same as its international level.

La Liga's strength in depth is epic these days:- with Valencia, Seville, Atletico as well as Real and Barca.

Far too much diving and Spanish penalties given every week.

Great credit though to Atletico for making it a three horse race this year for a change, especially given the huge discrepancy in financial backing between the two mega TV deal funded clubs and themselves.

[liquidfootball2]

La Liga's strength in depth is epic these days:- with Valencia, Seville, Atletico as well as Real and Barca.

They finally get a 3 horse race and you claim this

Valencia were a mere 41 points off the title this year. The same as Crystal Palace, who came 11th in England. (It was actually Athletic Bilbao who came 4th - hardly going to get the English teams quivering if they meet in the CL next season).

Valencia made this seasons semi's of the Europa League losing to the winners Seville, Bilbao was in the Europa League final two years ago and lost to Atletico in the final, Real and Atletico are in this seasons Champions League final and Barca have won the Champions League on three occasions in recent years.
I will take Bilbao to beat Liverpool and Arsenal next season if they meet, Atletico to beat Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea and Real and Barca to beat Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea and Man City as well as Seville to beat any Premier League teams in the Europa League, the Spanish dominance has been absolute this season as well as the majority of seasons in recent times as well.

The Europa League is taken far more seriously by Spanish clubs.

English teams are sometimes from the second tier of football (Birmingham, Wigan) or the lower reaches of the premiership (Swansea), and those higher up with bigger squads like Spurs or Liverpool play squad teams or don't take it seriously at all.

Compare the CL by all means but not the Europa League.

Chelsea did win the CL two years ago and Heynckes' Bayern looked all set for a period of dominance but Guardiola fixed what wasn't broken and Real humiliated them.

[thebillfella]

Eff me Trampie; do you even know what point you are trying to make any more?

These things go in cycles; Serie A was probably strongest in the 90s, the Prem was certainly the strongests in the 00s pre-credit crunch and La Liga now probably has the best quality near the top (with a little German blip last season). In Champions League terms there in very little to choose between the three in terms of winners; the Spanish and Italians certainly take the Europa League more seriously than we do but the quality at the bottom of their leagues is very poor relative to the prem.

However, what the hell has that got to do with whether players in any of the leagues are World Class or not, and indeed what has any of this got to do with your opinion of Giggs?

Next you'll be blaming the Tories again for how average Giggs was for Wales

[liquidfootball2]

A quick count up of all the European winners [CL, EL & CWC] since the Prem League has been in existence shows Italy way in front of England but well behind Spain.
So over that timeframe the Premier League comes a distant third, Serie A second and La Liga top.

Trample, besides taking this thread completely off topic, the timeframe chosen for your comparisons is one that is always likely to show premiership clubs at their very worst.

The English teams had been remarkably successful in Europe in the late 7Os and early 80's with Liverpool (4 times), Forest twice and Villa winning Europe's major honour but were banned from all European competition for six years after Heysel in 1985, this ban had just ended prior to the formation of the premier league.

Understandably it took English clubs a fair amount of time to even get competitive again in Europe following such a lengthy ban, which really doesn't help them when a large part of the 90's is included in your comparison.

As thebillfella noted English clubs were again successful in the 00's and now the top Spanish clubs are predominant with Guardiola's abrupt ending of the period of dominance briefly promised by Heynckes' Bayern.

Back on topic, it's great for Utd that Giggs's knowledge of the club and how things are run will be available to LVG, and now he's retired from playing he can look back with great pride on numerous honours and a longevity of playing career at Utd that may never be matched.

[trampie]

A quick count up of all the European winners [CL, EL & CWC] since the Prem League has been in existence shows Italy way in front of England but well behind Spain.
So over that timeframe the Premier League comes a distant third, Serie A second and La Liga top.

Trample, besides taking this thread completely off topic, the timeframe chosen for your comparisons is one that is always likely to show premiership clubs at their very worst.

The English teams had been remarkably successful in Europe in the late 7Os and early 80's with Liverpool (4 times), Forest twice and Villa winning Europe's major honour but were banned from all European competition for six years after Heysel in 1985, this ban had just ended prior to the formation of the premier league.

Understandably it took English clubs a fair amount of time to even get competitive again in Europe following such a lengthy ban, which really doesn't help them when a large part of the 90's is included in your comparison.

As thebillfella noted English clubs were again successful in the 00's and now the top Spanish clubs are predominant with Guardiola's abrupt ending of the period of dominance briefly promised by Heynckes' Bayern.

Back on topic, it's great for Utd that Giggs's knowledge of the club and how things are run will be available to LVG, and now he's retired from playing he can look back with great pride on numerous honours and a longevity of playing career at Utd that may never be matched.

Exactly, I said ''The standard of the Prem has indeed been rubbish since its introduction'', and you are trying to give reasons for this fact, but never the less the bottom-line is and its all relative and that is the Prem has been poor, even though its been hyped up by Sky.

[trampie]

Eff me Trampie; do you even know what point you are trying to make any more?

These things go in cycles; Serie A was probably strongest in the 90s, the Prem was certainly the strongests in the 00s pre-credit crunch and La Liga now probably has the best quality near the top (with a little German blip last season). In Champions League terms there in very little to choose between the three in terms of winners; the Spanish and Italians certainly take the Europa League more seriously than we do but the quality at the bottom of their leagues is very poor relative to the prem.

However, what the hell has that got to do with whether players in any of the leagues are World Class or not, and indeed what has any of this got to do with your opinion of Giggs?

Next you'll be blaming the Tories again for how average Giggs was for Wales

You referred to Cantona as ''THE best player in the Prem in the mid 90s and one of the best Prem players of all time, so if he wasn't world class that doesn't say much for the quality of the rest of the players in the entire history of the Prem''.
Exactly the quality of the Prem has been poor if the English regard Cantona so highly, the Welsh that i know and Europeans that I know regard names like Zidane, Messi and Van Basten as world class but not Eric Cantona, a bit of a show pony but 'a little player in a big game and a big player in a little game'.

[liquidfootball2]

A quick count up of all the European winners [CL, EL & CWC] since the Prem League has been in existence shows Italy way in front of England but well behind Spain.
So over that timeframe the Premier League comes a distant third, Serie A second and La Liga top.

Trample, besides taking this thread completely off topic, the timeframe chosen for your comparisons is one that is always likely to show premiership clubs at their very worst.

The English teams had been remarkably successful in Europe in the late 7Os and early 80's with Liverpool (4 times), Forest twice and Villa winning Europe's major honour but were banned from all European competition for six years after Heysel in 1985, this ban had just ended prior to the formation of the premier league.

Understandably it took English clubs a fair amount of time to even get competitive again in Europe following such a lengthy ban, which really doesn't help them when a large part of the 90's is included in your comparison.

As thebillfella noted English clubs were again successful in the 00's and now the top Spanish clubs are predominant with Guardiola's abrupt ending of the period of dominance briefly promised by Heynckes' Bayern.

Back on topic, it's great for Utd that Giggs's knowledge of the club and how things are run will be available to LVG, and now he's retired from playing he can look back with great pride on numerous honours and a longevity of playing career at Utd that may never be matched.

Exactly, I said ''The standard of the Prem has indeed been rubbish since its introduction'', and you are trying to give reasons for this fact, but never the less the bottom-line is and its all relative and that is the Prem has been poor, even though its been hyped up by Sky.

This is completely contrary to what I said, so I won't attempt to answer more fully.

[trampie]

La Liga's strength in depth is epic these days:- with Valencia, Seville, Atletico as well as Real and Barca.

They finally get a 3 horse race and you claim this

Valencia were a mere 41 points off the title this year. The same as Crystal Palace, who came 11th in England. (It was actually Athletic Bilbao who came 4th - hardly going to get the English teams quivering if they meet in the CL next season).

Valencia made this seasons semi's of the Europa League losing to the winners Seville, Bilbao was in the Europa League final two years ago and lost to Atletico in the final, Real and Atletico are in this seasons Champions League final and Barca have won the Champions League on three occasions in recent years.
I will take Bilbao to beat Liverpool and Arsenal next season if they meet, Atletico to beat Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea and Real and Barca to beat Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea and Man City as well as Seville to beat any Premier League teams in the Europa League, the Spanish dominance has been absolute this season as well as the majority of seasons in recent times as well.

The Europa League is taken far more seriously by Spanish clubs.

English teams are sometimes from the second tier of football (Birmingham, Wigan) or the lower reaches of the premiership (Swansea), and those higher up with bigger squads like Spurs or Liverpool play squad teams or don't take it seriously at all.

Compare the CL by all means but not the Europa League.

Chelsea did win the CL two years ago and Heynckes' Bayern looked all set for a period of dominance but Guardiola fixed what wasn't broken and Real humiliated them.

Premier League era:- Spain 7 wins, Italy 5 wins, England 4 wins. (Englands 4 wins include the Man U fluke with 2 goals in injury time, the Liverpool fluke from 3-0 down after Milan took their foot off the pedal and the Chelsea fluke on pens after being outplayed by the Germans who couldn't score]
No the scores are on the doors even with a few lucky wins by Premier League teams its still Spain 7, Italy 5 and England 4 in the Premier League era.

[Maldini]

Are you somebody's grandad?

Act your age.



We've one less CL win than Italy and have had Manchester United (twice), Chelsea, Arsenal & Liverpool lose in the final. This despite the lengthy ban. I also seem to recall a ridiculous rule regarding 'foreign' players that hindered our teams.

[mikeg13]

Exactly, I said ''The standard of the Prem has indeed been rubbish since its introduction'', and you are trying to give reasons for this fact, but never the less the bottom-line is and its all relative and that is the Prem has been poor, even though its been hyped up by Sky.

This is Afc record between 1980 and 2011 Spanish sides

P W D L
29 10 7 12

4 of those losses against Barca (in most of those 4 we had 10 men) hardly supports your argument 7 of games played were against Barca and 2 against Real.

If you take out the Big 2 games then record is pretty much even we just shaded it but it is so small.

[trampie]

Are you somebody's grandad?

Act your age.



We've one less CL win than Italy and have had Manchester United (twice), Chelsea, Arsenal & Liverpool lose in the final. This despite the lengthy ban. I also seem to recall a ridiculous rule regarding 'foreign' players that hindered our teams.

What's this 'we' Goldie ?

[Maldini]

We as in 'our Premier League'

The 'Goldie' reference has gone way over my head. You'll have to explain.

Is it a Welsh thing? Like your fondness for singing, Rugby and sheep?

[trampie]

We as in 'our Premier League'

The 'Goldie' reference has gone way over my head. You'll have to explain.

Is it a Welsh thing? Like your fondness for singing, Rugby and sheep?

Aur - Gold

[Maldini]

Hill of the gold. I knew that.

[liquidfootball2]

La Liga's strength in depth is epic these days:- with Valencia, Seville, Atletico as well as Real and Barca.

They finally get a 3 horse race and you claim this

Valencia were a mere 41 points off the title this year. The same as Crystal Palace, who came 11th in England. (It was actually Athletic Bilbao who came 4th - hardly going to get the English teams quivering if they meet in the CL next season).

Valencia made this seasons semi's of the Europa League losing to the winners Seville, Bilbao was in the Europa League final two years ago and lost to Atletico in the final, Real and Atletico are in this seasons Champions League final and Barca have won the Champions League on three occasions in recent years.
I will take Bilbao to beat Liverpool and Arsenal next season if they meet, Atletico to beat Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea and Real and Barca to beat Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea and Man City as well as Seville to beat any Premier League teams in the Europa League, the Spanish dominance has been absolute this season as well as the majority of seasons in recent times as well.

The Europa League is taken far more seriously by Spanish clubs.

English teams are sometimes from the second tier of football (Birmingham, Wigan) or the lower reaches of the premiership (Swansea), and those higher up with bigger squads like Spurs or Liverpool play squad teams or don't take it seriously at all.

Compare the CL by all means but not the Europa League.

Chelsea did win the CL two years ago and Heynckes' Bayern looked all set for a period of dominance but Guardiola fixed what wasn't broken and Real humiliated them.

Premier League era:- Spain 7 wins, Italy 5 wins, England 4 wins. (Englands 4 wins include the Man U fluke with 2 goals in injury time, the Liverpool fluke from 3-0 down after Milan took their foot off the pedal and the Chelsea fluke on pens after being outplayed by the Germans who couldn't score]
No the scores are on the doors even with a few lucky wins by Premier League teams its still Spain 7, Italy 5 and England 4 in the Premier League era.

I can choose an even more recent and therefore relevant timeframe, In the last 15 finals, Spain have won 5 (soon to be 6), England 4, Italy 3, Germany 2 and Portugal 1.

Sky have claimed the premiership is the best league as it is far more competitive, that's completely different from which country has provided the champions league winners more often.

This thread is meant to be about Giggs retiring not this childish stuff anyway.

[trampie]

We as in 'our Premier League'

The 'Goldie' reference has gone way over my head. You'll have to explain.

Is it a Welsh thing? Like your fondness for singing, Rugby and sheep?

Oh the Welsh - English Premier League, I get it now.

[trampie]

La Liga's strength in depth is epic these days:- with Valencia, Seville, Atletico as well as Real and Barca.

They finally get a 3 horse race and you claim this

Valencia were a mere 41 points off the title this year. The same as Crystal Palace, who came 11th in England. (It was actually Athletic Bilbao who came 4th - hardly going to get the English teams quivering if they meet in the CL next season).

Valencia made this seasons semi's of the Europa League losing to the winners Seville, Bilbao was in the Europa League final two years ago and lost to Atletico in the final, Real and Atletico are in this seasons Champions League final and Barca have won the Champions League on three occasions in recent years.
I will take Bilbao to beat Liverpool and Arsenal next season if they meet, Atletico to beat Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea and Real and Barca to beat Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea and Man City as well as Seville to beat any Premier League teams in the Europa League, the Spanish dominance has been absolute this season as well as the majority of seasons in recent times as well.

The Europa League is taken far more seriously by Spanish clubs.

English teams are sometimes from the second tier of football (Birmingham, Wigan) or the lower reaches of the premiership (Swansea), and those higher up with bigger squads like Spurs or Liverpool play squad teams or don't take it seriously at all.

Compare the CL by all means but not the Europa League.

Chelsea did win the CL two years ago and Heynckes' Bayern looked all set for a period of dominance but Guardiola fixed what wasn't broken and Real humiliated them.

Premier League era:- Spain 7 wins, Italy 5 wins, England 4 wins. (Englands 4 wins include the Man U fluke with 2 goals in injury time, the Liverpool fluke from 3-0 down after Milan took their foot off the pedal and the Chelsea fluke on pens after being outplayed by the Germans who couldn't score]
No the scores are on the doors even with a few lucky wins by Premier League teams its still Spain 7, Italy 5 and England 4 in the Premier League era.

I can choose an even more recent and therefore relevant timeframe, In the last 15 finals, Spain have won 5 (soon to be 6), England 4, Italy 3, Germany 2 and Portugal 1.

Sky have claimed the premiership is the best league as it is far more competitive, that's completely different from which country has provided the champions league winners more often.

This thread is meant to be about Giggs retiring not this childish stuff anyway.

Cherry picking now is it butt ?, the nearly Premier League timescale but not quite Premier League timescale, that old chestnut.