Man City and FFP

[forestfan]

Well yeah, we lost our way long before that... if only Wray had financially doped us instead of his beloved rugby team

[DavidLloydIsAHero]

Sort of hoping City do win the CL this year now ( no way we'll win it ) as the meltdown in UEFA and execs of other top clubs will be fun to watch

[blahblah]

Would the Prem get 5 places if they do?

[Darbyand]

From this article https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... -butterfly for forestfanofbillionaires

[Zimmerman]

What’s the point it’s making? I don’t see one?

[Darbyand]

That's an excerpt from a longer article. It's the paragraph that starts "Slightly..." that encapsulates my thoughts on the basic unfairness of oil money buying trophies. A decent writer gets across in one para what I've probably circled around in countless posts on this thread.

[thebillfella]

I think your comment about robbing organic growth from others overnight was actually a better way of getting the same message across to be fair darbyand.

[forestfan]

Organic growth is impossible, as far as making it to the very top for a long period of time. You can have a few great seasons but teams tend to hit glass ceilings and rebound sharply - their managers and best players get picked off, they start signing mercenaries who clash with those whose efforts got them there, running up debts to chase losses, etc. and they find themselves in League One a few years later.

If you don’t support one of the global superclubs your only real hope is a billionaire (and the right billionaire, money alone doesn’t make good and successful owners, just look at the likes of QPR, and us under Fawaz for example). Don’t take that hope away from the rest of us, or it might as well be a closed shop NFL-style European league with the rest going amateur. The football pyramid’s about chasing the dream, whether you’re in the Premier League or Northern Counties East.

[forestfan]

Generally agree with this from Stan Collymore (even if there is an obvious bit of Forest/Leicester/Villa bias in there!)

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football ... e-21506960

[thebillfella]

Organic growth is impossible, as far as making it to the very top for a long period of time. You can have a few great seasons but teams tend to hit glass ceilings and rebound sharply - their managers and best players get picked off, they start signing mercenaries who clash with those whose efforts got them there, running up debts to chase losses, etc. and they find themselves in League One a few years later.

If you don’t support one of the global superclubs your only real hope is a billionaire (and the right billionaire, money alone doesn’t make good and successful owners, just look at the likes of QPR, and us under Fawaz for example). Don’t take that hope away from the rest of us, or it might as well be a closed shop NFL-style European league with the rest going amateur. The football pyramid’s about chasing the dream, whether you’re in the Premier League or Northern Counties East.

Don't agree. Newcastle / Villa / Everton / Spurs were all there in the mix before being leapfrogged and could have had the Champions League revenue if it hadn't been robbed artificially by the cheaters! Before Chelsea and City nouveau riche came along the big teams weren't blowing the competition out of the water with exorbitant transfer fees and the fees were not getting out of control.

If anything, it is the billionaires driving up transfer fees that lifted the glass ceiling higher; it is only the recent TV revenue increases that has lifted all UK teams back closer to that ceiling again.

Sounds like you are looking for ways to justify the fall from grace of your own team there ff.

[murf]

Organic growth is impossible, as far as making it to the very top for a long period of time. You can have a few great seasons but teams tend to hit glass ceilings and rebound sharply - their managers and best players get picked off, they start signing mercenaries who clash with those whose efforts got them there, running up debts to chase losses, etc. and they find themselves in League One a few years later.

If you don’t support one of the global superclubs your only real hope is a billionaire (and the right billionaire, money alone doesn’t make good and successful owners, just look at the likes of QPR, and us under Fawaz for example). Don’t take that hope away from the rest of us, or it might as well be a closed shop NFL-style European league with the rest going amateur. The football pyramid’s about chasing the dream, whether you’re in the Premier League or Northern Counties East.

Maybe I am talking from a different starting point to that you envisage but Liverpool under FSG have achieved what could be described as decent organic growth in a short period of time. There were a few grumbles from fans in the early days because FSG didn't open their cheque books like an oil tycoon but some sensible stabilising measures soon bought success which bought income and hence expenditure and more success. All done properly as a business rather than a plaything / ego trip. The money wasn't spent until the base was right. Liverpool had effectively been pushed out of the CL by doped clubs but sensible measures grew them until they were back there - and then some.

[forestfan]

Organic growth is impossible, as far as making it to the very top for a long period of time. You can have a few great seasons but teams tend to hit glass ceilings and rebound sharply - their managers and best players get picked off, they start signing mercenaries who clash with those whose efforts got them there, running up debts to chase losses, etc. and they find themselves in League One a few years later.

If you don’t support one of the global superclubs your only real hope is a billionaire (and the right billionaire, money alone doesn’t make good and successful owners, just look at the likes of QPR, and us under Fawaz for example). Don’t take that hope away from the rest of us, or it might as well be a closed shop NFL-style European league with the rest going amateur. The football pyramid’s about chasing the dream, whether you’re in the Premier League or Northern Counties East.

Don't agree. Newcastle / Villa / Everton / Spurs were all there in the mix before being leapfrogged and could have had the Champions League revenue if it hadn't been robbed artificially by the cheaters! Before Chelsea and City nouveau riche came along the big teams weren't blowing the competition out of the water with exorbitant transfer fees and the fees were not getting out of control.

If anything, it is the billionaires driving up transfer fees that lifted the glass ceiling higher; it is only the recent TV revenue increases that has lifted all UK teams back closer to that ceiling again.

Sounds like you are looking for ways to justify the fall from grace of your own team there ff.

Well, our fall from grace was largely due to there only being one Brian Clough, to be fair (perpetuated by some crap owners and many poor managerial appointments in the time since). Historically we’re a fairly middling club who don’t have any real sense of entitlement, though 20 years outside the top flight is unacceptable even by those standards. Our history is our main asset, though, and something to be exploited in that it should give us a profile boost compared with similar sized clubs.

[thebillfella]

But the point is you were there, albeit briefly, and you let it slip away through bad directorship (at least in part) IMO. You had the first £1m player didn't you? We all started at some point from relatively humble begins that was kick started by a great manager; Busby for United, Shankly for Liverpool, Herbert Chapman for Arsenal, Clough for Forest.

The difference was the vision that those clubs had and how the money success was reinvested to make the club more sustainable in the future. Whether that success was reinvested in the ground (more seats, corporate boxes etc), training facilities, scouting / coaching systems, proactively seeking better commercial sponsorship etc. The continued success and growth was self-earned; it didn't need an artificial stimulus from an external benefactor

[forestfan]

In the PL/CL era things have changed, though - the commercial power of the former G14 etc. precludes new entrants unless they literally have a bottomless pit of money. Look at Leicester, after that unbelievable season they quickly slipped back to struggling at the wrong end of the table as attempts to strengthen the squad failed. OK, they may be belatedly reaping the benefits now, and who knows, their second surge might be the one that sticks. But they’re never going to replicate the global brand power of the established giants, even if they perhaps have something of a captive market in Thailand in their specific case. Even City after 12 years of Abu Dhabi ownership probably still rank behind, say, Arsenal in terms of worldwide following.

[blahblah]

Yep.

It is a totally different discussion for those in the cabal than outside it. I would expect Leicester to have quite a net transfer deficit, but should be compared to Everton and Wolves rather than the Top 5.

The interesting discussions are more about how the rich Clubs drop away eg Lpool however long ago and MU now; and how Clubs break into it, or not eg Spuds vs Chelski, City and arguably Leicester.

[Zimmerman]

Organic growth is impossible, as far as making it to the very top for a long period of time. You can have a few great seasons but teams tend to hit glass ceilings and rebound sharply - their managers and best players get picked off, they start signing mercenaries who clash with those whose efforts got them there, running up debts to chase losses, etc. and they find themselves in League One a few years later.

If you don’t support one of the global superclubs your only real hope is a billionaire (and the right billionaire, money alone doesn’t make good and successful owners, just look at the likes of QPR, and us under Fawaz for example). Don’t take that hope away from the rest of us, or it might as well be a closed shop NFL-style European league with the rest going amateur. The football pyramid’s about chasing the dream, whether you’re in the Premier League or Northern Counties East.

Don't agree. Newcastle / Villa / Everton / Spurs were all there in the mix before being leapfrogged and could have had the Champions League revenue if it hadn't been robbed artificially by the cheaters! Before Chelsea and City nouveau riche came along the big teams weren't blowing the competition out of the water with exorbitant transfer fees and the fees were not getting out of control.

If anything, it is the billionaires driving up transfer fees that lifted the glass ceiling higher; it is only the recent TV revenue increases that has lifted all UK teams back closer to that ceiling again.

Sounds like you are looking for ways to justify the fall from grace of your own team there ff.

Before Abramovic rocked up, Everton had managed 2 top 7 finishes in the 12 preceding seasons.
Before the Sheik rocked up at City, Everton had managed 4 top 7 finishes (16 season)

there are other agitators you can throw in to the mix;
Blackburn, Wigan, Fulham, Ridsdale nearly bankrupting Leeds, Hall nearly bankrupting Newcastle... all of these clubs were doped and disrupted the status quo and natural evolution of clubs (does that even exist)?
I think the CL is every bit to blame for the imbalance - could that have been Everton or Villa cemented in the top 4 places?? Everton finished 4th in 04/05. Got knocked out at the qualifying round and promptly finished 11th the following season.
Arguably Newcastle were as much of hinderance to Villa. They were spending money they didn't have.


In the 13 seasons between it becoming top 3 qualify for the CL and City breaking in to the top 4.
9 different clubs occupied those top 4 spots - 4 clubs clearly monopolising those positions.

Arsenal / United x 13
Chelsea x 10
Liverpool x 8
Leeds x 3
Newcastle x 2
City / Everton / Spurs x 1

[Zimmerman]

Chelsea had finished in the top 6 for the 7 seasons prior to Roman (something Everton hadn't done once in those 7 seasons)

Code: Select all

	Chelsea	Villa	Newc	Spurs	Everton		
92	14	7	n/a	15	12		
93	11	2	n/a	8	13		
94	14	10	3	15	17	blackburn	
95	11	18	6	7	15		
96	11	4	2	8	6		
97	6	5	2	10	15	top 2 CL
98	4	7	13	14	17	ridsdale	
99	3	6	13	11	14	top 3 CL
00	5	6	11	10	13		
01	6	8	11	12	16		
02	6	8	4	9	15	top 4 CL
03	4	16	3	10	7		
04	2	6	5	14	17	abramovic	
05	1	10	14	9	4		
06	1	16	7	5	11		
07	2	11	13	5	6		
08	2	6	12	11	5	monsoor	Ashley
09	3	6	18	8	5		
10	1	6	n/a	4	8		
11	2	9	12	5	7		

[thebillfella]

The cabal

Milan, Marseille, Leverkusen, PSV, Lyon and Valencia are part of the G14 - how is that working out for them compared to say Atletico Madrid, Leipzig, Roma, Napoli, Spurs and Schalke say?

Only Milan from them is in the Deloitte top 20 money league and they earn roughly the same as West Ham and Newcastle and less than Spurs and Everton. It is not a closed shop at all; clubs like West Ham are just wasting their greater revenue on the wrong choices, while clubs like Leipzig are making good choices on a fraction of the budget.

Leicester has a pretty healthy net transfer surplus (roughly £85m+ since they won the league despite the money brought in through player sales); they just spent a lot of their money on the wrong players that didn't work out (and a couple like Maguire / Perreira / Maddison that did). Think Slimani, Musa, Mendy, A Silva, Iheanacho, Iborra - fairly healthy double digit million pound sums on each that haven't worked out. What if they had invested that money on the ground / training facilities / better scouting system instead for longer term sustained improvement rather than short term success chasing?

[forestfan]

Suggestions that Liverpool could be retrospectively awarded the 2014 title. What would be worse for United fans, having their title gap reduced from 30 to 24 years, or not being able to sing the Gerrard slip song any more?

[Darbyand]

Suggestions that Liverpool could be retrospectively awarded the 2014 title. What would be worse for United fans, having their title gap reduced from 30 to 24 years, or not being able to sing the Gerrard slip song any more?

If United get 2012 and 2018 (Jose's greatest achievement!) I suppose we'd take it.

Chelsea had finished in the top 6 for the 7 seasons prior to Roman (something Everton hadn't done once in those 7 seasons)

Chelsea were over £100m in debt with cuddly Ken and close to bankruptcy before Abramovich stepped in, a different type of doping really.

[Zimmerman]

Yep, similar to my Ridsdale and Hall nominations. Arguably Villa were sailing close to the wind too?
Did Lerner come a long and throw a load of money at it the retreated when it fell short?

Obviously a ‘load’ then, wouldn’t even buy you midfielder from a mid-table team now.

[murf]

At least Abramovich has toned it down and now runs Chelsea as more of a sensible business.

Taking into account club value changes (which I assume FFP doesn't) he has probably made a tasty profit despite the early vanity doping. Morally, City's owners could use that 'speculate to accumulate' argument to a degree - is it true, or anything like, in their case????

(Am I right in thinking Abramovich bought Chelsea for £1 or was that somebody between him and Bates?? Did Harding own the club?)

[Zimmerman]

Yes, i seem to recall he bought it for a nominal amount, but took on all the debt.

Presumably he’s probably quadrupled his investment on prime london real estate before worrying about the value of the club (which has obviously increased massively).

[blahblah]

Bates brought it for a quid, but not sure about how much he sold it for.

Harding pumped a fair whack in from memory, but not sure if it was a cash gift, or loan or just securing a loan as per Shepherd at Newcastle.

[forestfan]

No Pepxit for the time being then.

[buu1333]

Leicester has a pretty healthy net transfer surplus (roughly £85m+ since they won the league despite the money brought in through player sales); they just spent a lot of their money on the wrong players that didn't work out (and a couple like Maguire / Perreira / Maddison that did). Think Slimani, Musa, Mendy, A Silva, Iheanacho, Iborra - fairly healthy double digit million pound sums on each that haven't worked out. What if they had invested that money on the ground / training facilities / better scouting system instead for longer term sustained improvement rather than short term success chasing?

Quite a lot of forwards there that didn't work out, but was any of them going to replace Vardy ? Iheanacho is not bad he is 23 and Vardy is 33. Iheanacho will step up

[Darbyand]

We seem to have drifted into the whether FFP is fair or not debate and I can't see anyone shifting an inch from long-held positions. What's not in dispute is that City signed up to those rules like everyone else, then lied and cheated to break them. Pretty sure there's been examples of clubs having to sell players (Salah at Roma?) to stay within the rules to the detriment of their performance.

Edit, here's the link: https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... efa-monchi

City's appeal starts today. This is a decent summary:

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/footba ... 1591541761

City's defence seems to be based on "wah, it's not fair" if this quote has any credence:

A report by the Financial Times last week quotes a source with knowledge of Uefa’s investigation, who claims: “provided Uefa don’t cave in, they should win at CAS . . . City have no evidence at all”.

[murf]

A knowledge of UEFA's investigation may not be the most neutral of viewpoints though, bearing in mind the gist of City's complaint being that it was not impartial as UEFA were complainant, judge and jury.

I hope they are found guilty (on assumption they morally are) because a) they deserve all that is coming to them and b) FFP will be dead if they win.

[Dot]

Perhaps Liverpool win 2 league titles this year.

[Darbyand]

Perhaps Liverpool win 2 league titles this year.

Both with an asterisk.

This article states that a Premier League enquiry could follow the CAS decision which is expected in early July.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/20 ... wo-season/