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The Wisdom of Crowds...

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Totelfootball
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The Wisdom of Crowds...

Post by Totelfootball »

Chris & Benny have made their position abundantly clear on this forum.

Our position is quite simple.

We guaranteed that there would be a €1k pool. During gameweek 18 we took in €778.40 in bets. The pool fell €221.60 short of this guaranteed pool and our commitment is to make up this shortfall.

To protect us against the precise eventuality of a gameweek such as last week-ends, we had the following rule in place:
"If 3 or more players on a team do not play due to a match being cancelled, then the team is declared a non-runner. The stake bet on this team will be refunded to the customer and the pool is reduced in size."

€693.60 worth of bets were refunded to customers because of this rule. This left €84.80 in the game pool. €177.28 (80% of the shortfall) was added to the pool meet our commitment to the guaranteed pool. This explains our position and is why we feel fully vindicated in paying out €262.08 rather than €800.

Chris & Benny feel they have a legitimate dispute and they are right to seek resolution by the appropriate channels. Of more importance to us than the outcome of this arbitration process is that our reputation remains intact with other FISO customers. To this end we would like to gauge the collective opinion of FISO members with regard to this settlement.

We’d very much appreciate if you could take 1 minute to fill out the following survey FISO Survey (2 questions only). The results of the survey are visible once you complete the questionnaire. TF will act in accordance with the wisdom of the crowd in this regard.

All at TotelFootball would like to take this opportunity to wish all FISOers a very happy & prosperous Christmas & New Year.

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pa102aw
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Re: The Wisdom of Crowds...

Post by pa102aw »

Sorry to say that the Survey won't accept my answer and keeps telling me to enter my Fiso Username (which I have done)

Image

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Richt
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Re: The Wisdom of Crowds...

Post by Richt »

original post deleted as it's the season of good will.... instead I have completed the questionnaire
Last edited by Richt on 24 Dec 2010, 12:41, edited 1 time in total.

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tedbull
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Re: The Wisdom of Crowds...

Post by tedbull »

A nice idea TF.

I do think, however, that you've not presented all the facts in the post above. Im on my phone but maybe some could post a link to the GW18 thread to show the counter argument (rather than this thread turning into another debate).

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Rob
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Re: The Wisdom of Crowds...

Post by Rob »

It'd also help if a copy of the GW18 T&C's were provided; imo it's impossible to give an informed opinion without them.

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admin
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Re: The Wisdom of Crowds...

Post by admin »

Totelfootball wrote: "If 3 or more players on a team do not play due to a match being cancelled, then the team is declared a non-runner. The stake bet on this team will be refunded to the customer and the pool is reduced in size."
This doesn't however mention how the 'guarantee' then impacts i.e. whether the guarantee applies to the pool before or after this reduction for stake returns.

I assume you meant for the guarantee to apply before the reduction (i.e. as you applied it) otherwise you can have the farcical situation like last gameweek where only a very small amount of entries were valid but still with a large prize pool. But, if so, you didn't make the rules clear enough and I think you should pay Chris & Ben out (even if their reaction has IMO been somewhat over the top) based on what the rules stated at the time and ensure in future the rules are crystal clear and cater for all circumstances.

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Re: The Wisdom of Crowds...

Post by Kdub »

admin says they should be paid...

Now this is getting interesting :P

bennyc
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Re: The Wisdom of Crowds...

Post by bennyc »

I won't vote but welcome the discussion.

A compromise was put forward by Chris earlier in the week and that still stands as far as I'm concerned.

I don't win very often and therefore I got very animated as a result of the decision not to pay out when I thought that was the wrong decision.

I personally regret the way I've behaved in the last few days. I still believe we were in the right but public slanging matches are not the way to go and I won't be doing that again.

Chris from Totel - I apologise for the PM's earlier in the week.

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Kdub
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Re: The Wisdom of Crowds...

Post by Kdub »

bennyc wrote:I won't vote but welcome the discussion.

A compromise was put forward by Chris earlier in the week and that still stands as far as I'm concerned.

I don't win very often and therefore I got very animated as a result of the decision not to pay out when I thought that was the wrong decision.

I personally regret the way I've behaved in the last few days. I still believe we were in the right but public slanging matches are not the way to go and I won't be doing that again.

Chris from Totel - I apologise for the PM's earlier in the week.
Benny's feeling the Xmas spirit :idea:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: The Wisdom of Crowds...

Post by admin »

Kdub wrote:admin says they should be paid...
as I did a couple of days ago velvet-snow-t81878.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Vid
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Re: The Wisdom of Crowds...

Post by Vid »

pa102aw wrote:Sorry to say that the Survey won't accept my answer and keeps telling me to enter my Fiso Username (which I have done)

Image
pa, you need to select one of the two options as to which you believe is "more right".

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Vid
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Re: The Wisdom of Crowds...

Post by Vid »

admin wrote:
Totelfootball wrote: "If 3 or more players on a team do not play due to a match being cancelled, then the team is declared a non-runner. The stake bet on this team will be refunded to the customer and the pool is reduced in size."
This doesn't however mention how the 'guarantee' then impacts i.e. whether the guarantee applies to the pool before or after this reduction for stake returns.

I assume you meant for the guarantee to apply before the reduction (i.e. as you applied it) otherwise you can have the farcical situation like last gameweek where only a very small amount of entries were valid but still with a large prize pool. But, if so, you didn't make the rules clear enough and I think you should pay Chris & Ben out (even if their reaction has IMO been somewhat over the top) based on what the rules stated at the time and ensure in future the rules are crystal clear and cater for all circumstances.
With admin on this one, pay out with grace and take the hit on the chin and make sure all your T&Cs say exactly what you mean, clearly.

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pa102aw
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Re: The Wisdom of Crowds...

Post by pa102aw »

Vid wrote:
pa102aw wrote:Sorry to say that the Survey won't accept my answer and keeps telling me to enter my Fiso Username (which I have done)

Image
pa, you need to select one of the two options as to which you believe is "more right".
But I don't want to tick any of the two options as I want to enter something in the "other" box.

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Vid
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Re: The Wisdom of Crowds...

Post by Vid »

pa102aw wrote: But I don't want to tick any of the two options as I want to enter something in the "other" box.
The question is should they have paid out £200 or £800, if you believe that a compromise should be somewhere in between then you have to vote for the 2nd option that they were wrong to pay out "only" £200 and you can still add your comment in the field to say £500 or whatever.

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pa102aw
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Re: The Wisdom of Crowds...

Post by pa102aw »

Vid wrote:
pa102aw wrote: But I don't want to tick any of the two options as I want to enter something in the "other" box.
The question is should they have paid out £200 or £800, if you believe that a compromise should be somewhere in between then you have to vote for the 2nd option that they were wrong to pay out "only" £200 and you can still add your comment in the field to say £500 or whatever.
Aha, your a font of wisdom Vid. :D

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Re: The Wisdom of Crowds...

Post by Striker »

admin wrote:
Totelfootball wrote: "If 3 or more players on a team do not play due to a match being cancelled, then the team is declared a non-runner. The stake bet on this team will be refunded to the customer and the pool is reduced in size."
This doesn't however mention how the 'guarantee' then impacts i.e. whether the guarantee applies to the pool before or after this reduction for stake returns.

I assume you meant for the guarantee to apply before the reduction (i.e. as you applied it) otherwise you can have the farcical situation like last gameweek where only a very small amount of entries were valid but still with a large prize pool. But, if so, you didn't make the rules clear enough and I think you should pay Chris & Ben out (even if their reaction has IMO been somewhat over the top) based on what the rules stated at the time and ensure in future the rules are crystal clear and cater for all circumstances.
Chris; I was totally unaware of the situation until 5 minutes ago when I started reading about it. I'd take a different line to yourself. Surely the issue is that the pool was guaranteed at 1000, not the pay-out to winners. It seems to me that if Totelfootball increase the pool to 1000, they have met their obligation. If I'd been a winner I'd have accepted their explanation without demur even though I can be stroppy when appropriate.

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Re: The Wisdom of Crowds...

Post by bennyc »

Striker - they didn't pay out the 1,000 euros. They paid out around 250 euros.

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Re: The Wisdom of Crowds...

Post by Striker »

As I understand it, including refunds, they paid out 956 odd euros.

In any comp its reasonable for refunds to be taken out of the pool. Even they fail to point out that that does not reduce the size of the pool, it simply reduces the pay out to winners.

Their wording both originally and even here in their own defence is poor, but in principle I'd agree with them.
Last edited by Striker on 24 Dec 2010, 15:59, edited 1 time in total.

bennyc
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Re: The Wisdom of Crowds...

Post by bennyc »

Striker wrote:As I understand it, including refunds, they paid out 956 odd euros.

In any comp its reasonable for refunds to be taken out of the pool.


Fair enough if that is your view. This is what the disagreement was about. The pool was stated as being guaranteed 1,000 euros. The original T+C's said -

Stake money collected creates a prize pool. 20% of the total prize pool will be retained to cover operational expenses.

On Tuesday - after the dispute they were changed to -

Stake money collected creates a prize pool. 20% of the total prize pool will be retained to cover operational expenses. There may be further deductions to return voided bets to customers in the case of match cancellations. Please be aware that the advertised total prize pool is at all times referred to before any deduction has been made.

The whole argument has been about what guaranteeing the prize pool actually means.

I understand that some people feel that me and Chris are wrong and TF are right.

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Chrisharry12345
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Re: The Wisdom of Crowds...

Post by Chrisharry12345 »

I agree with striker that taking the refunds out of the prize fund is a reasonable thing to do but only if they say in the T+C's that this is whats going to happen. As they didnt they should pay out the full amount..

If the T+C's are clarified for future weeks noone will have a problem with the refunds being taken out the prize fund

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Re: The Wisdom of Crowds...

Post by Striker »

bennyc wrote:The original T+C's said -

Stake money collected creates a prize pool. 20% of the total prize pool will be retained to cover operational expenses.

On Tuesday - after the dispute they were changed to -

Stake money collected creates a prize pool. 20% of the total prize pool will be retained to cover operational expenses. There may be further deductions to return voided bets to customers in the case of match cancellations. Please be aware that the advertised total prize pool is at all times referred to before any deduction has been made.
Although I disagree with you, I can see the problem that you have with them. Even their revision is not very satisfactory. I'm sure that it can be improved upon but I'd have said something like.

Stake money collected creates a prize pool. The prize pool less (a) 20% of that pool that will be retained to cover operational expenses and (b) any refunds to made to punters in accordance with rule ...., will be paid out to the winners.

Totelfootball
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Re: The Wisdom of Crowds...

Post by Totelfootball »

Apologies for the delayed response on our part. We were on turkey duty :D

In response to your comments...

1) pa102aw: We have changed the format of the survey so that question 1 does not require an answer. You can suggest an alernative solution rather than the 2 options presented.

2) tedbull: Prior discussions on this matter are outlined in the following thread:
important-update-on-gameweek-18-t81807.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

3) SOBD: Fair point. The T&Cs as they stood for GW18 are as presented in the following link...
http://www.totelfootball.com/affiliate/ ... s_gw18.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

4) bennyc: Many thanks for your agreement not to allow any further disagreements to descend into slagging matches. To be fair we are not blameless in this regard & I would like to apologise for our part in same.

The wording during gw18 was as follows:
"Stake money collected creates a prize pool. 20% of the total prize pool will be retained to cover operational expenses. Please be aware that the advertised total prize pool is at all times referred to before any deduction has been made." The issue here is that we class the refunds of voided bets to customers as a reasonable deduction from the pool, you don't.

On Tuesday - after the dispute this section of the T&Cs were changed to include the words: "There may be further deductions to return voided bets to customers in the case of match cancellations." Nothing underhand in this regard. We are simply seeking to provide clarification on this point so that there are no repeats of this issue in future competitions.

5) Striker: Many thanks for your suggestions with regard to the wording. We will take this on board on foot of these discussions.

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Re: The Wisdom of Crowds...

Post by Totelfootball »

btw... Only :) :) :( :( :( :( :( :( :( respondents thus far... It hardly classes as a crowd.. Surely we can do a little better & ensure our decision better reflects the consensus of the FISO forum...
:) :) :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

bennyc
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Re: The Wisdom of Crowds...

Post by bennyc »

Possibly a lot of FISO-ers feel that they have already expressed their opinions in the threads you have attached to your post this morning and others on this site?

Anyway I'm pleased that my apology was accepted and likewise accept yours.

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Re: The Wisdom of Crowds...

Post by blahblah »

In the event that 5 or less games are completed in any gameweek, then the total pool will be reduced by the amount of the voided bets refunded to customers. In this scenario there will be no minimum guaranteed pool.

These are the words that appear on the link, I would have thought proportionately would be a matter word.

This says 85%, when did it change?

I thought that the guaranteed Prize Pool was £1000.

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Re: The Wisdom of Crowds...

Post by Totelfootball »

1) Changed from 85% to 80% a number of months ago.

2) Pool is guaranteed at €1,000.

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blahblah
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Re: The Wisdom of Crowds...

Post by blahblah »

Totelfootball wrote:1) Changed from 85% to 80% a number of months ago.

2) Pool is guaranteed at €1,000.
Is this where the £800 comes from? (as ER is £850 approx)

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Re: The Wisdom of Crowds...

Post by Totelfootball »

Payout is 80% of the pool & we use a currency conversion of 1.2 from euro to sterling.

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Re: The Wisdom of Crowds...

Post by blahblah »

Totelfootball wrote:Payout is 80% of the pool & we use a currency conversion of 1.2 from euro to sterling.
Does that mean the min pool is €800, as you take your 20% from this minimum?

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Re: The Wisdom of Crowds...

Post by Totelfootball »

Just a quick note to mention that TF have settled GW 18 with a payout of €800. This reflects the consensus of the FISO users...
- 3 voted for a payout of €262
- 8 voted for a payout of €800
- 1 voted for a payout of €537
I think you'll agree that our position was not as forlorn as was presented on the forums.

We have updated the T&Cs to clarify our position and protect against a recurrence of such an event.

We do welcome any and all criticisms from FISO users. You are very educated on the game and we are under no illusions that this game is a stronger, healthier game as a result of your feedback over the past months. Nonetheless, we would ask if these criticisms be kept to the game and not question our integrity.

We have operated the game in an honest and earnest manner at all times. We feel it unreasonable to have our integrity called into question on a public forum such as FISO at every turn. It's highly damaging to our reputation as we seek to build this game and attract further players.

Many thanks for your support during 2010 and we'd welcome your continued support into 2011 and beyond.

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