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The points scoring.

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Hamlet
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Re: The points scoring.

Post by Hamlet »

The Saint wrote:
You get to keep your profits in this game :)

'Each player has been given a value. The total value of your initial squad must not exceed £100 million.

On 11th September 2008, players' values will begin to fluctuate depending on their popularity. These fluctuations will also influence your available budget to spend on new players.

For example, if you select Steven Gerrard for £9m, and he goes on to be valued at £9.5m, your budget will increase by £0.5m. You can use this to spend on new players. Similarly, you can also lose budget if your players decrease in value.'
Thanks for that The Saint, completely missed that aspect of the rules! I've never played a game with price changes before, so it's all pretty new to me. Guess the specifics of this game are unknown to everyone, so hopefully shouldn't be at too much of a disadvantage. Any generic advice from anyone, beyond the obvious 'buy players that are scoring well'? Or are the tactics vis-a-vis price changes that simple?

Anyhow, a fairly good Saturday put me up to 20th overall, though only have 1 to play, so unlikely to stay that high; hoping for some Lampard goals!

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mongoose
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Re: The points scoring.

Post by mongoose »

5-1-3-1 for me.

Currently 742nd at the moment :oops: , but with 4 to play.

re: subs and transfers - these will really become useful when double gameweeks come into play later in the season.

Bit dismayed that Friedel scored so badly this week :(

Not So Special One
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Re: The points scoring.

Post by Not So Special One »

The game rules say that player values are frozen until Sept. 11 and after that changes will take place every Thursday. What happens depends on the popularity of the player in the transfer market, they say. But the Guardian transfer stats appear to be secret, unless anybody has found them.

Looks like you keep the entire increase in value - nothing about a sell-on charge of 50% of the increase as in other games.

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The Saint
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Re: The points scoring.

Post by The Saint »

The transfered in/out stats don't appear to be published. All I have is this from an Igoogle plug-in:

Player Club Position Value Picked by
1. F Torres LIV ST £11.5m 51.84% <
2. S Gerrard LIV MF £10m 32.08% <
3. G Barry AST DM £7.3m 27.37% ^
4. C Fabregas ARS MF £9.5m 24.75% v
5. M Richards MAC DF £5.7m 23.90% <
6. E Adebayor ARS ST £9.2m 20.37% ^
7. J Lescott EVE DF £7.9m 19.98% v
8. D. Bentley BLA MF £7.7m 19.64% ^
9. J Woodgate TOT DF £5.6m 18.30% ^
10. D James POR GK £6.8m 18.29% ^

Number of teams registered: 84055

Not So Special One
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Re: The points scoring.

Post by Not So Special One »

Ah so. ^ means more transferred in than out, and v more out than in, so if you keep track of the number of managers (84,055 so far) and the percentages from week to week, you can calculate a rough number for transfers involving the ten most-owned players.

David James is being bought by Guardian managers and sold heavily by FPL managers - he's near a price drop. And Micah Richards is the 5th most-owned player here but the 11th most-owned defender at FPL and falling even before his injury at West Ham yesterday.

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mongoose
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Re: The points scoring.

Post by mongoose »

Just thought I would mention and congratulate Clever TV / DreamLeague for their prompt servicing of helpdesk tickets. I queried Brad Friedels -3 points score and within a couple of hours they had corrected it to -1. Well done to them! :D

Can't believe Friedel did not make a save though :shock:

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The Saint
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Re: The points scoring.

Post by The Saint »

mongoose wrote:Just thought I would mention and congratulate Clever TV / DreamLeague for their prompt servicing of helpdesk tickets. I queried Brad Friedels -3 points score and within a couple of hours they had corrected it to -1. Well done to them! :D

Can't believe Friedel did not make a save though :shock:
I think you mean "save". Would be interesting to see what the OPTA definition they are using is. Same goes for "clearance".

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stanley smith
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Re: The points scoring.

Post by stanley smith »

A bit strange that amongst the multitude of stats that the guardian are scoring (block, tackles interceptions etc etc), there are no points awarded for pass completion.
Also, accurate crossing is included but I presume this wouldn't be given for a pinpoint defence splitting pass from central midfield?

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Gorgie
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Re: The points scoring.

Post by Gorgie »

So overperforming players will increase your budget on 11th September. What happens to - say - G Neville's price - he will not have made an appearance @ 11/08 (Man U don't play this weekend). Does his value, and others that have not played @ 11/09, stay the same ?

(hope you know what I mean !)
Last edited by Gorgie on 03 Sep 2008, 21:54, edited 1 time in total.

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mongoose
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Re: The points scoring.

Post by mongoose »

The Saint wrote:
mongoose wrote:Just thought I would mention and congratulate Clever TV / DreamLeague for their prompt servicing of helpdesk tickets. I queried Brad Friedels -3 points score and within a couple of hours they had corrected it to -1. Well done to them! :D

Can't believe Friedel did not make a save though :shock:
I think you mean "save". Would be interesting to see what the OPTA definition they are using is. Same goes for "clearance".
I did a quick check for Cech and his 5 "save" points last game tally with Wigan's 5 shots on target. So "saves" probably refer to "saved shots on target".

Don't know about how to define "clearances".

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stanley smith
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Re: The points scoring.

Post by stanley smith »

Gorgie wrote:So overperforming players will increase your budget on 11th September. What happens to - say - G Neville's price - he will not have made an appearance @ 11/08 (Man U don't play this weekend). Does his value, and others that have not played @ 11/08, stay the same ?

(hope you know what I mean !)
I think the changes in price are related to the number of people transfering the player in or out of their team - it's not related to points scored. The theory on overperforming players is that people will be transfering them in so this means their price should go up. We'll have to wait and see how it pans out.

Not So Special One
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Re: The points scoring.

Post by Not So Special One »

stanley smith wrote:A bit strange that amongst the multitude of stats that the guardian are scoring (block, tackles interceptions etc etc), there are no points awarded for pass completion.
The completed passes that really matter, assists, get 4 points. Last season Fabregas averaged an assist every second game he played, and his total led the EPL. He also averaged nearly 60 pass completions a game. How would you score that?

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The Saint
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Re: The points scoring.

Post by The Saint »

The Gerrard injury might help us a bit with the price change formula. He was owned by 26965 teams when I posted on 25th August. Hopefully we will get updated figures on the way to and post September 11th after his (surely inevitable) price drop.

Dan Kennett
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Re: The points scoring.

Post by Dan Kennett »

some crude early season analysis to confirm that the power seems to lie with the defenders in this game

(coincidentally) there are 100 players who've scored 20 or more points so far

58 defenders, average score 27
20 midfielders, average score 25
10 DM's, average score 28 (probably skewed by Darren Fletcher at this time)
7 forwards, average score 25
4 goalies, average score 25

based on that, you'd be mad not to play 5-2-2-1 or 5-1-3-1 every game...

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Spencer4
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Re: The points scoring.

Post by Spencer4 »

Switched to 5-2-2-1 this week and rose 600 places to 11th. Crazy game :mrgreen:

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Groomyd
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Re: The points scoring.

Post by Groomyd »

I had Defoe, RVP and Bent up front and fell back!!!!!

Need to re-think!!!!

Not So Special One
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Re: The points scoring.

Post by Not So Special One »

The top four overall in gameweek 3 are playing 5 defenders, and #1 is using 5-2-2-1. #5, who is a traditionalist, got there (to his amazement) with 4-1-3-2 in gameweek 1, 4-2-2-2 in gameweek 2, and 4-1-3-2 again in gameweek 3. He'd better upgrade his defenders if he's only going to play 4 of them.

Not So Special One
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Re: The points scoring.

Post by Not So Special One »

Hamlet wrote:Apart from this (spurious) logic, you haven't offered any argument as to why these price changes reflect the whole season (not that I can see anyhow).
Oh, the logic is straightforward enough. I'll put it as simply as possible:

Guardian Fantasy Football's first official set of player prices went online before the season began.

GFF's second official set of player prices, with many price changes, went online on Thursday, 11 Sept.

Therefore, the price changes on 11 Sept. must reflect the whole season. What else could they reflect? Q.E.D.

A pause to let this sink in...







You asked for an argument. I'll do my best.

First, when the Guardian posts a new and official set of player prices, surely this reflects all the buying and selling that took place during the whole period since their last official set of player prices. Not some lesser period within that time frame, as would be necessary if the 11 Sept. prices were truly to reflect not the whole season but just the latest week. The 4 Sept. prices were obviously not intended to be official, as they were almost immediately removed. The burden of refuting this is on you.

Very well. On 4 Sept. The Guardian accidentally leaked some inside information that looked like their private running totals of changes in player values. (Is that really what it was? More below - much more.) Those who happened to see this information - the original prices were restored within a day - thought they had a sneak preview of the players' new values to be officially announced on 11 Sept. Some of us, including me, no doubt unfairly, used this "information" to buy and sell players that looked like having big price moves.

On 11 Sept. GFF published their authoritative, "real" new player values and price changes. These were sometimes quite different from the 4 Sept. numbers. Steven Gerrard's original price of £10.0 appeared on 4 Sept. to have dropped to £9.0, yet on 11 Sept. his official value was £9.5. Could he possibly have risen £0.5 in one week, reversing a heavy selling trend, without any major news or EPL action? I suspect these and other price moves didn't actually happen. In other words, the 4 Sept. numbers were not the genuine article.

I believe that what appeared on 4 Sept. may have been a trial run of GFF's market/price algorithm to test whether it produced the kind of results they wanted. And it didn't. They told The Saint in an e-mail that weekly price adjustments would be "minor," but Gerrard's drop from £10.0 to £9.0 was not minor at all. To prevent such extreme fluctuations, they may have decided to revise or replace their formulas to get "better" results, such as reducing Gerrard's drop from £1.0 to £0.5.

This is only a guess, of course, and I don't have enough of the 4 Sept. numbers to test it any further. But if I'm right, then the 4 Sept. prices were not arrived at by the same formulas as the 11 Sept. prices, and so they were not valid. However, both price sets were based on the same database, of our buying and selling of players, so the 4 and 11 Sept. numbers did reflect the same trends. Gerrard's actual price drop, though not a full £1.0, was still unusually big, well worth spending a transfer to avoid. Those who acted on the 4 Sept. values may have netted less than the numbers seemed to promise, but we probably did well enough anyway. I'm not complaining.

Finally, how did these numbers get online? Guessing again, maybe GFF's automated routines for calculating new player values include one that posts the results online immediately, and during the trial run they didn't think to turn it off. Such a routine would have the advantage of allowing the player values to be calculated at literally the last minute. And this is the most plausible explanation I can think of for the 4 Sept. numbers getting online at all. If it's true.

Anyway, now we will have new real numbers every week and can look for patterns and trends in them, and can set all this aside.

anon6
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Re: The points scoring.

Post by anon6 »

spurious is a big word. three silly-ables. Hamlet only has two. I thought all the convo before hand was on the money. Including Not So Special One....Nothing silly about that :lol: . . . and that's 5 syllables :D

End of the day (or first price change period), know one knows. New game and all :D Game on :D

Hamlet
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Re: The points scoring.

Post by Hamlet »

Not So Special One wrote:
Hamlet wrote:Apart from this (spurious) logic, you haven't offered any argument as to why these price changes reflect the whole season (not that I can see anyhow).
Oh, the logic is straightforward enough. I'll put it as simply as possible:

Guardian Fantasy Football's first official set of player prices went online before the season began.

GFF's second official set of player prices, with many price changes, went online on Thursday, 11 Sept.

Therefore, the price changes on 11 Sept. must reflect the whole season. What else could they reflect? Q.E.D.
Not so Special One: I hope you didn't find my disputing of your argument disparaging in any way, since it wasn't intended as such. Anyway, this is (as you've also pointed out) a rather superfluous debate, so I won't respond in detail. I hope you credit me with enough intelligence to understand the (detailed) argument you've made, but personally I can't agree with your use of "QED" (since you haven't proved anything either mathematically or philosophically). You've in fact demonstrated very little, though you've presented a plausible argument for one side. But there are plausible arguments for both sides.

The answer to your question quoted above ("what else could they reflect?") is (of course), the last 7 days! As per the rules. Why couldn't they just take the data from the last 7 days? You've presented no reason why they have to have used the whole season's transfer data. I still don't see any reason why last week's (temporary) figures couldn't have been based on the 7 days before they were 'published', and why this week's can't be based on the last 7 days.

Not So Special One
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Re: The points scoring.

Post by Not So Special One »

I'm not the only one here to infer, from the size of the price changes and regardless of what the rules may say, that the first set of changes surely reflects net transfers in more than the previous week. The reasoning behind this is mostly in another thread, "Player Values," so your posting a response here is odd and possibly confusing. Any who care can find it here:

viewtopic.php?f=133&t=48610

As for whether my (actually, our) "logic" is "spurious," we were chatting informally to try and figure out what the numbers meant - none of us was preparing a formal dissertation and you are not our tutor - so what you said and the way you said it was certainly nettlesome:
Hamlet wrote:Apart from this (spurious) logic, you haven't offered any argument as to why these price changes reflect the whole season (not that I can see anyhow).
Disparaging though this is, you say you didn't intend it to be, and I'm content to leave it at that.

Before dropping the subject, a few more words (I hope :) ).

It may be that GFF means the Rules' explanation of player price changes to be literally and strictly binding on themselves, engraved in stone as it were. You evidently assume so, perhaps FISOhead does too, and maybe you're right. But the numbers we were shown on 11 Sept., and especially the numbers GFF let slip on 4 Sept., make this at least questionable, and obviously I think it highly improbable. Could be that to keep its explanation as short and simple as possible, GFF did not bother to go into the special case of the first month of the season.

By induction from such evidence as we have, including both GFF's rules and their e-mail on the subject, as well as the numbers, I'm as sure as I can be that the 4 Sept. price changes can't have reflected net transfers only in the week since 28 August. And if not, then there is no compelling basis for supposing that the 11 Sept. price changes reflected net transfers only in the week since 4 Sept. Without inside information, we can only reason inductively and informally from such evidence as we have, as best we can.

If you like, though, you could e-mail GFF and ask what the first set of price changes actually did reflect. Who knows, they may answer you as they did The Saint. And that would not only settle this discussion gone wrong, but also give us a firm basis for anticipating what may happen next Thursday and the Thursday after that.

Hamlet
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Re: The points scoring.

Post by Hamlet »

An amicable conclusion. Right now I'm more annoyed at dropping Adebayor and Lampard, and screwing myself thereby.

As to this:
Not So Special One wrote:The reasoning behind this is mostly in another thread, "Player Values," so your posting a response here is odd and possibly confusing.
I changed threads because you had! (two posts above my last one). I was confused as to why, but thought it best just to respond where your post was.

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Shaggy365
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Re: The points scoring.

Post by Shaggy365 »

My best competition by far. Having finally remembered to do some transfers I managed to come 197th in the week. I even had Torres left in my side as I thought that there were automatic substitutions. Serves me right for not reading the rules I suppose.

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The Saint
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Re: The points scoring.

Post by The Saint »

I'm up to 73rd overall now :)

Predictions for the biggest price risers and fallers this week?

Riser: Adebayor

Faller: Terry

NB - I don't have any data to base these on just guess work.

Hamlet
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Re: The points scoring.

Post by Hamlet »

129 pts this week was only enough to stick around 400th place, so looked like a high scoring week.

Aside from Adebayor, I guess Denilson will rise, and probably Defoe. Also, Gerrard will probably go back up again after his sub appearance (although I guess some people will be waiting to see whether it looks as if Ronaldo will start next week).

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The Saint
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Re: The points scoring.

Post by The Saint »

The Saint wrote: Faller: Terry
perhaps not now....

Dan Kennett
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Re: The points scoring.

Post by Dan Kennett »

Top 5 risers (season so far)
1. Zaki +1.2
2= Deco +1.1
2= SWP +1.1
4= Berbatov/Defoe +1

Top 5 fallers (season so far)
1. Torres -1.6
2. Essien -0.9
3. Gerrard -0.7
4= Keane/Bentley/Santa Cruz/Anelka -0.5

so apart from the long term injured Essien all the the top ins/outs are MF/ST

so far, the defenders and DMs don't seem to be fluctuating as much.

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stanley smith
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Re: The points scoring.

Post by stanley smith »

Is it possible to find total points scored by players on a week-by-week basis, rather than the complicated breakdowns that I have been manually adding up?

andye
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Re: The points scoring.

Post by andye »

stanley smith wrote:Is it possible to find total points scored by players on a week-by-week basis, rather than the complicated breakdowns that I have been manually adding up?
Click on any one of the leagues you are in - ie overall leaderboard

Then click on your team name

Then click on the player whose stats you want to see


Or , if you want to see other players , click on 'Player Performance Stats' on the left of the screen and then the player you are interested in

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stanley smith
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Re: The points scoring.

Post by stanley smith »

Cheers Andy.

Not very user-friendly is it - be nice to have something like 'team history' in TFF so you can quickly see the weekly contributions made by players in your team.

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