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 Post subject: Re: The FISO Guide to FPL Price Changes (The Code Thread) 08/09
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2008, 14:33 
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FISOhead
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Would be happy to, but i`m not exactly an expert. Am I right in saying we are looking at the guys above 17,629 (Ashton threshold), but the players which have already taken rise reset to zero as per your table?


Last edited by DanCaek on 19 Aug 2008, 14:48, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The FISO Guide to FPL Price Changes (The Code Thread) 08/09
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2008, 14:45 
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Does anyone know how you get the full player stats off the site?

For some reason I just get the first 50 results in each section... ie

FPL Stats

Is there another html table that has the next 50, and the next 50, and so on... or do web queries have a limit on the data you can pull?

Thanks in advance.


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 Post subject: Re: The FISO Guide to FPL Price Changes (The Code Thread) 08/09
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2008, 14:48 
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DanCaek wrote:
Would be happy to. Am I right in saying we are looking at the guys above 17,629 (Ashton threshold), but the players which have already taken rise reset to zero as per your table?


Don't forget that those who have already risen will need twice the NTI of those who have not already risen. So somewhere above 35k since the last rise.

Right?


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 Post subject: Re: The FISO Guide to FPL Price Changes (The Code Thread) 08/09
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2008, 15:06 
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tedbull wrote:
DanCaek wrote:
Would be happy to. Am I right in saying we are looking at the guys above 17,629 (Ashton threshold), but the players which have already taken rise reset to zero as per your table?


Don't forget that those who have already risen will need twice the NTI of those who have not already risen. So somewhere above 35k since the last rise.

Right?


Not quite that simple - for second risers you need to first subtract their NTI at the time of the first change - which is over 20K for all of last night's guys - from their current NTI.
You then need T x 2, circa 35K NTI in addition to those 20-odd K NTI to create a second rise of 0.1m.

I wouldn't expect any doublers until Friday - unless someone excels in an International!

DanCaek, by all means, have a go at forecasting.
Just remember to deduct any TOs from the TIs first, to get the NTI figure.
And put a note on your post that it's your first try at this - 'buyer beware'. :lol:

Fallers are much harder to predict as the fall depends on both NTO and % Owned By.
This involves manually checking a player's %OB on his Profile (to get the more precise figure) then correlating that % into a range of possible Owned By stats within a 0.1% range.
You then have to determine if his NTOs are around 11% of that range, at which point he is likely to fall by 0.1m.
Clear as mud? :oops:
To do this you have to check every likely suspect by hand!


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 Post subject: Re: The FISO Guide to FPL Price Changes (The Code Thread) 08/09
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2008, 15:08 
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tedbull wrote:
Does anyone know how you get the full player stats off the site?

For some reason I just get the first 50 results in each section... ie

FPL Stats

Is there another html table that has the next 50, and the next 50, and so on... or do web queries have a limit on the data you can pull?

Thanks in advance.

I don't know how to do it with a WebQuery in Excel as, while the data you need is behind the page, it doesn't come through.

I do it by saving the page as a txt file, the stats page with any filter applied does it, and then parsing out the relevant block and then import into Access and then various routines to store it all correctly in the db (adding new players etc)

To see the block your need - go to the stats page and apply a filter - any filter will do. Then View the Page Source from your browser. Search for the following text

tn[4] = ["Forward","Forwards"];

Immediately after that is all the Players Stats in one big block. (Which fields are which is below that block)


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 Post subject: Re: The FISO Guide to FPL Price Changes (The Code Thread) 08/09
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2008, 15:25 
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Flyman wrote:
:?: Are the deadline NTO details for Senderos and Essien available, please?

Essien
TI 432
TO 8267
NTI/O -7835
OB% 7 (7.1 as at now - don't know the 1dp fig at threshold)

Senderos
TI 36
TO 2256
NTI/O -2220
OB% 1 (1.5 as at now - don't know the 1dp fig at threshold)
Note: News - Hamstring injury - unknown return date - Red i

Detail for all Players on EditGrid (as at just after the 1st rises/falls)

Flyman wrote:
:idea: Would all those collecting data please try to take the '% Owned By' (%OB) from any Falling Player's Profile [see his (i)], as this year that is registering to the first decimal point? This may need to be done manually.*

* :?: Would it be possible for the FISO Stats IT Boffins to harvest the Profile %age?

The word manually makes this difficult - for me anyway

Everything I have, and a would guess D+ has, is automatic and just 1 page download is required. Even if it were possible to automate the process it's more page downloads than I'd care to make really. (I had a quick look at how the stats page was constructed with FireBug but was unable to work out, cos it's not really a skill I have, what I would need to do to set up for that.)

Now if FPL were to increase the number of dp's for %OB in the main data then it would be easier. Better still include the actual number (approx) of teams owned by and we'd have nirvana :P


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 Post subject: Re: The FISO Guide to FPL Price Changes (The Code Thread) 08/09
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2008, 15:36 
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Gotcha flyman - i`ll have a stab, but skip the decreases. :lol:

Probably advisable that someone else does it to, but if I learn it, I could be another option in future at least.


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 Post subject: Re: The FISO Guide to FPL Price Changes (The Code Thread) 08/09
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2008, 15:45 
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Flyman wrote:
flyingkillercob wrote:
Correct me if any of this seems wrong...

Max ownership of Vela would be just shy of 0.55% (anything over would round up to 0.6)
Min ownership of Vela would be 0.45%

So, max actual figure would be 7195
Min actual figure would be 5887

NTO was 826

Max ownership at start of game - 8021
Min ownership at start of game - 6713

So, max %age drop required for a fall - 12.3
Min %age required for a drop - 10.3

Need more players to fall so we can narrow it down but at least the max and min figures seem sensible and in line with what we have had before.


One error, I believe, is that 0.45 would register as 0.4%, not 0.5%. This will alter your Min Ownership figure.
Can you let us know what the 'Total Players' figure you used was, Fkc?
If you used '1,308,161' from last night then your figures for Max/Min OB at Start of Game will be wrong as that number has increased since Saturday.
Does anyone have the Total Players number as of Saturday 11:30am?


My second point is a question, rather than a correction ....
Flyingkillercob has taken the route of looking to a Fall Threshold as a consequence of NTOs based on Starting Figures. This is feasibly the way the Falls are determined.

It is also feasible, is it not, that the Fall Threshold is based on Contemporary Figures, not Starting Figures?
That is, that the fall is triggered when the NTO reaches, say, 11% of a player's Current %OB, not his Starting %OB.

If so, then:
Re: Vela's price fall.

Vela @ 826 NTO / 0.5% Owned By (after the fall).

0.5% = 0.46% -> 0.55%

Total Players at time of Change = 1,308,161

Therefore:
Min OB at time of Change = 6017.54
Max OB at time of Change = 7194.88

NTO = 826

Fall Threshold Parameters = 13.73% :arrow: 11.48%

[Workings:
1,308,161 / 100 x (0.46) and (0.55) = Min / Max Owned By at Time of Change.

826 NTO as a percentage of Min / Max Owned By =

6017.54 / 100 = 60.1754 (=1%) :arrow: 826 / 60.1754 = 13.73%OB
7194.88 / 100 = 71.9488 (=1%) :arrow: 826 / 71.9488 = 11.48%OB]

Finally, although Vela fell at 826 NTO, he may well have crossed the threshold at 815 NTO or less!
For instance, had he fallen at just 800 NTO then the Fall Threshold could be as low as 11.12%, etc.

Please correct me if I've got anything wrong. :)

Still, it does look as if we are still playing in the usual ball park. :)


And they say football is a simple game :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: The FISO Guide to FPL Price Changes (The Code Thread) 08/09
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2008, 16:29 
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This is one thread I am sure the FPL organisers hate to see. :lol: Any chance of adjusting the figures for the CYKI version! :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: The FISO Guide to FPL Price Changes (The Code Thread) 08/09
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2008, 16:33 
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Jonathan wrote:
This is one thread I am sure the FPL organisers hate to see. :lol: Any chance of adjusting the figures for the CYKI version! :wink:

If I were in their shoes I'd love it to be honest.

Just when we're about to home in the solution they could just make a tweak and mess with our heads :lol:

As for CYKI - feel free Jonathan :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: The FISO Guide to FPL Price Changes (The Code Thread) 08/09
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2008, 16:39 
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Thanks Romyn! Very good of you - you don't have the Total Players stat for Saturday at kick off, do you? :D

DanCaek - Just having a crack at the risers would be great, thanks! As you say, if a boffin can have a go too, then you'll have a bit of back up.


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 Post subject: Re: The FISO Guide to FPL Price Changes (The Code Thread) 08/09
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2008, 16:44 
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Flyman wrote:
Thanks Romyn! Very good of you - you don't have the Total Players stat for Saturday at kick off, do you? :D

Of course :D - although I can't see the use of it - except maybe to chuckle at those who made transfers before any games even started.

(Mid-day or 3PM ?)


Last edited by RomynPG on 19 Aug 2008, 16:50, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The FISO Guide to FPL Price Changes (The Code Thread) 08/09
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2008, 16:50 
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RomynPG wrote:
Flyman wrote:
Thanks Romyn! Very good of you - you don't have the Total Players stat for Saturday at kick off, do you? :D

Of course :D

(Mid-day or 3PM ?)

Midday, please. With sprinkles. :lol:

Looks like my guess at a 10% fall threshold was too low. Shame about Senderos getting red (i)'d - he'd have made an interesting comparison to Vela.

Edit: I want the stat to take a look at falls the way Fkc was trying - from Starting Figures, not rolling figures .....


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 Post subject: Re: The FISO Guide to FPL Price Changes (The Code Thread) 08/09
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2008, 17:29 
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diamondplus wrote:
Off the top of their head, does anybody know if the NTIs reset to zero on the day prices start rising?


Slight clarification as I wrote this question in a hurry.

Obviously the prices have started rising now but does anyone know when they started counting NTIs from? i.e. was there an NTI reset between Saturday and yesterday?


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 Post subject: Re: The FISO Guide to FPL Price Changes (The Code Thread) 08/09
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2008, 17:35 
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diamondplus wrote:
diamondplus wrote:
Off the top of their head, does anybody know if the NTIs reset to zero on the day prices start rising?


Slight clarification as I wrote this question in a hurry.

Obviously the prices have started rising now but does anyone know when they started counting NTIs from? i.e. was there an NTI reset between Saturday and yesterday?

I'd assume that it started from the first deadline - ie Saturday. Don't believe there's been any reset.


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 Post subject: Re: The FISO Guide to FPL Price Changes (The Code Thread) 08/09
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2008, 17:41 
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Flyman wrote:
Midday, please. With sprinkles. :lol:

Image

There you go cupcake :wink:
click the image


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 Post subject: Re: The FISO Guide to FPL Price Changes (The Code Thread) 08/09
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2008, 17:50 
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Just some comments on your maths Flyman :wink:

Flyman wrote:
One error, I believe, is that 0.45 would register as 0.4%, not 0.5%. This will alter your Min Ownership figure.

In standard maths, 0.5 is rounded up to 1. :wink: So it should be the case that 0.45% registers as 0.5%, and 0.55% registers as 0.6%.

However here, since each single ownership is a tiny fraction of a percent of all 1.3 million, anyone registering as 0.5% could be between 0.450000% and 0.549999%, so it is near as dammit good enough to take 0.45 and 0.55 as your lower and upper bounds.


Flyman wrote:
My second point is a question, rather than a correction ....
Flyingkillercob has taken the route of looking to a Fall Threshold as a consequence of NTOs based on Starting Figures. This is feasibly the way the Falls are determined.

It is also feasible, is it not, that the Fall Threshold is based on Contemporary Figures, not Starting Figures?
That is, that the fall is triggered when the NTO reaches, say, 11% of a player's Current %OB, not his Starting %OB.

You are correct, but actually doesn't matter which you use: you will get a slightly different percentage but it means the same thing.

Let's presume the drop threshold is 10% of Starting Ownership. Say player A was owned by 10,000 teams so needs 1,000 NTO to drop. At the time of dropping he will be owned by 9,000 teams so the NTO (1000) is 11.1% of his Current Ownership.

And say the threshold is 25% of Starting Ownership (eg for injured players?), this would be exactly equivalent to 33.3% of Current Ownership.

Perhaps for clarity you chaps could all declare which to work with (S.O. or C.O.), so you don't cross swords with different percentages etc. I guess D+'s site must go from Starting Ownerships, but it is possible to work now using either set of figures (and convert the answer/s you come up with if necessary for D+).


Flyman wrote:
Finally, although Vela fell at 826 NTO, he may well have crossed the threshold at 815 NTO or less!
For instance, had he fallen at just 800 NTO then the Fall Threshold could be as low as 11.12%, etc.

Good point, very important. You're only gonna get an upper bound on the actual % threshold from any risers/fallers, you'll have to get lower bounds from non-risers/non-fallers. (This is because, as Flyman mentioned, a riser or faller is PAST the threshold; maybe only just but maybe by quite some distance)

eg for the risers, Djourou's 20,638 is now an upper bound, and Ashton's 17,629 (plus 1!) is a lower bound.

Similar works for fallers, ie (using FKC's first shot at analysing Vela, going with the Starting Ownership figures) 12.3% is an upper bound for the drop threshold. The lower bound is then NOT 10.3% (as, say, the threshold could have been 8%, he's still past it!) - but must be determined from someone who is a non-riser.


Good luck all in the quest to Crack The Code, good work so far. :D


(reds363 - CTC mathematical consultant) :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: The FISO Guide to FPL Price Changes (The Code Thread) 08/09
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2008, 18:18 
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:lol:

Thanks ....... but that's not what I asked for! :oops:

I asked for the Total Players stat, i.e. the total number of managers playing the game, not the 'total players' stats'. :lol:

Don't blame me! That's what FPL call it! I'd say 'Total Managers' stat, in preference, but that's not what they use on their site!

So ..... have you got it? :|


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 Post subject: Re: The FISO Guide to FPL Price Changes (The Code Thread) 08/09
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2008, 18:25 
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reds363 wrote:
Just some comments on your maths Flyman :wink:

Flyman wrote:
One error, I believe, is that 0.45 would register as 0.4%, not 0.5%. This will alter your Min Ownership figure.

In standard maths, 0.5 is rounded up to 1. :wink: So it should be the case that 0.45% registers as 0.5%, and 0.55% registers as 0.6%.

However here, since each single ownership is a tiny fraction of a percent of all 1.3 million, anyone registering as 0.5% could be between 0.450000% and 0.549999%, so it is near as dammit good enough to take 0.45 and 0.55 as your lower and upper bounds.


But, as the examples I gave shows, FPL aren't doing this. I didn't just make it up, ya know. :lol:

Btw, is it not acceptable (if not standard) practice to round down on odds and up on evens, to create an equalising mean? E.g. 1.5 = 1, while 2.5 = 3? This is haunting me from my school years. :roll: :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: The FISO Guide to FPL Price Changes (The Code Thread) 08/09
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2008, 18:43 
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0, 1, 2, 3, 4 - Down
5, 6, 7, 8, 9 - Up.

Rounding 5 down makes a 6-4 split.


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 Post subject: Re: The FISO Guide to FPL Price Changes (The Code Thread) 08/09
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2008, 18:44 
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Very good point there Reds about the upper bounds threshold - wasn't really thinking too hard last night!


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 Post subject: Re: The FISO Guide to FPL Price Changes (The Code Thread) 08/09
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2008, 18:57 
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When I was at school (probably not as long ago as you :wink: ), convention was of course to round up. At A level we got points for either way, though.

The problem with what BFM said is that 0 is no more legit than the "10" you would round up to because the boundary is "0" and "10", not "0" and "9".

As such, it`s:

0 -- 1,2,3,4 -- 5 -- 6,7,8,9 -- 10
10 --............stuff.............---20

So can go either way, albeit "up" is standard.


Last edited by DanCaek on 19 Aug 2008, 19:01, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The FISO Guide to FPL Price Changes (The Code Thread) 08/09
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2008, 19:01 
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I must admit... I remember being taught to always round up. Was a long time ago though.

Edit... no actually I'm wrong. 0.5 and above was up and 0.4 and below was down... so what BFM said really. :oops: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: The FISO Guide to FPL Price Changes (The Code Thread) 08/09
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2008, 20:36 
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I'm currently setting up the Crackthecode webpage at the moment so ignore any stupid results you see on there.


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 Post subject: Re: The FISO Guide to FPL Price Changes (The Code Thread) 08/09
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2008, 20:59 
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diamondplus wrote:
I'm currently setting up the Crackthecode webpage at the moment so ignore any stupid results you see on there.


Okay, I think it's all sorted. (fingers crossed)

The drop list isn't as complete as it could be as not every player has had their ownership percentage change yet. We'll just see what happens.

On a side note:
I grab the team count from the latest score of the first team registered.
(http://fantasy.premierleague.com/M/eventhist.mc?id=1)

The spooky thing? ...he's selected nine of the same outfield players I did as well as the same captain. The only difference is I chose Bosingwa over Carvalho and Gallas over Clichy.

Funnily enough, we both had the same score this week. :D

Additional edit:
I've just noticed he's in the FISO forum league, so he's probably reading this!
Hi Romyn Perret-Green!


Last edited by diamondplus on 19 Aug 2008, 21:12, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The FISO Guide to FPL Price Changes (The Code Thread) 08/09
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2008, 21:03 
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diamondplus wrote:
diamondplus wrote:
I'm currently setting up the Crackthecode webpage at the moment so ignore any stupid results you see on there.


Okay, I think it's all sorted. (fingers crossed)

The drop list isn't as complete as it could be as not every player has had their ownership percentage change yet. We'll just see what happens.


Great work diamondplus


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 Post subject: Re: The FISO Guide to FPL Price Changes (The Code Thread) 08/09
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2008, 21:11 
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Flyman wrote:
:lol:

Thanks ....... but that's not what I asked for! :oops:

I asked for the Total Players stat, i.e. the total number of managers playing the game, not the 'total players' stats'. :lol:

Don't blame me! That's what FPL call it! I'd say 'Total Managers' stat, in preference, but that's not what they use on their site!

So ..... have you got it? :|

Just be more specific next time...

1233396

...my choices were between CupCake and Doughnut ... I made the wrong choice obviously :D

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 Post subject: Re: The FISO Guide to FPL Price Changes (The Code Thread) 08/09
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2008, 21:13 
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diamondplus wrote:
I'm currently setting up the Crackthecode webpage at the moment so ignore any stupid results you see on there.


sounds great, d+.

will be keen to check if your more cast iron numbers look anything like what i've been arriving at after a little fiddling.
i did this over the last 2 hours so some may have changed, but i'd be suprised ashton did not go up tonight.
there's a slight chance he could've had a red or orange/yellow i next to his name however i doubt it since the fpl folks are normally a little slow to react on such things. and sometimes with good reason too. as the implications of a quick i next to his name would put amnesties in place, when they did not need to be. but there is a slight chance it could've existed for a short spell. (i didn't catch that it had been mentioned on the last 2 pages of this thread, one way or the other. so i'm presuming not.)

risers and their nti's
deco 38k
agbon 36k
geovanni 30k
arteta 25k
nasri 25k
djourou 23k
ashton 20k - should have 1st rise tonight
bosingwa 15k - probably not tonight
santa cruz 14k
j o'brien 10k

fallers and the % towards a drop (taking the 11% NTO threshold as the earliest point)
berb 47%
m petrov 36%
bent 25%
adebayor 22%
downing 18%

i just selected a few fallers i have a watch on. and used a current total number of game players as 1322094.


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 Post subject: Re: The FISO Guide to FPL Price Changes (The Code Thread) 08/09
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2008, 21:20 
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DISCLAIMER - THIS IS MY FIRST TIME DOING THIS - USE AT OWN RISK!

Tonight
Stong possibilty in Near future
Possible Price Risers (+0.1m) (presuming NTI threshold between 17,630 and 20,473 )


GKs = Cech(Currently 13,330 NTI)

Defs = Bosingwa(Currently 15,150 NTI)

Mids = None

For = Ashton, Santa Cruz(Currently 14,100 NTI)


Possible Price fallers (-0.1m) (presuming an 11% NTO threshold/1,300,000 managers.)

This is for players owned by 1% of managers or more, using 1430 per % owned by, which is 11% of total managers or something along those lines. It made sense when I did it. :lol:

GKs = None

Defs = Alex

Mids = Essien, Ramsey

For = None


Yarrr, and whilst I did that the pro did it properly! Great job sir.


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 Post subject: Re: The FISO Guide to FPL Price Changes (The Code Thread) 08/09
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2008, 21:27 
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sir goatus australis
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my figures jive with yours dancaek and diamondplus's also.
(and mine are approx.)

but with some comments;
i did forget cech - 13k nti's i reckon is correct.
wheater's not on my radar (at the moment).
so they need double the rise for the 2nd rise. ok, cool.
i would like to ask about bosingwa though. both dancaek and i have him down as about 15k nti's, but diamond plus has him at 11k. i trust d+ more than me but if dc is coming up with the same as me then i question that particular one (bosingwa).


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