FISO News   Play Totel Football     FISO News   Admin's Spanish Holiday Apartment Rental Offer     FISO News   Rooney, Aguero, Suarez, RVP   


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 40 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Confusion over Bathroom work
PostPosted: 05 Jul 2011, 11:05 
Online
Grumpy Old Man

Joined: Thu Oct 13 2005
Posts: 3266
Location: Clifton,Bristol
FS Record: Would be alot better but for Andy L & E !
One of my friends has had her bathroom done by a builder she has used twice b4 and he was ok.
This time they are having a disagreement of the cost - she says he quoted her 4k for all the work including costs of products while he said he quoted he 4k not including costs.(about an extra 1k)
Any ideas guys?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Confusion over Bathroom work
PostPosted: 05 Jul 2011, 11:07 
Offline
Dunkledore
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 26 2007
Posts: 6935
Location: South West England.
FS Record: Pick Quick Winner 2010-11..........£420 total in winnings from mini cash leagues over the years
written or verbal quote?


Top
 Profile FPL Team Page  
 
 Post subject: Re: Confusion over Bathroom work
PostPosted: 05 Jul 2011, 11:10 
Offline
FISO Jedi Knight
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 13 2005
Posts: 37019
Location: .. he thinks that he knows something which he doesn't, whereas I am quite concious of my ignorance.
Where the previous plus costs?

There is a sound reason for plus costs, as it can keep turnover below vat levels.


Top
 Profile WWW FPL Team Page  
 
 Post subject: Re: Confusion over Bathroom work
PostPosted: 05 Jul 2011, 11:33 
Online
Grumpy Old Man

Joined: Thu Oct 13 2005
Posts: 3266
Location: Clifton,Bristol
FS Record: Would be alot better but for Andy L & E !
It was a verbal quote - he gave her a quote of 4k and she said she asked him does that include everything - she said he said yes - but now he is saying its didnt include "costs of materials"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Confusion over Bathroom work
PostPosted: 05 Jul 2011, 11:35 
Offline
Dunkledore
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 26 2007
Posts: 6935
Location: South West England.
FS Record: Pick Quick Winner 2010-11..........£420 total in winnings from mini cash leagues over the years
If it's verbal she's not going to have a leg to stand on :(


Top
 Profile FPL Team Page  
 
 Post subject: Re: Confusion over Bathroom work
PostPosted: 05 Jul 2011, 11:38 
Offline
FISO Baron
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 13 2005
Posts: 61584
Location: Chilling in a Fantasy Football free world
Blog: View Blog (9)
FS Record: Good at something
The average builder speaking face to face with one of The Bear's female 'friends' would probably struggle to get a sentence out (and make eye contact) let alone give a comprehensive verbal quote.


Top
 Profile WWW FPL Team Page  
 
 Post subject: Re: Confusion over Bathroom work
PostPosted: 05 Jul 2011, 12:47 
Offline
FISO Knight
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 13 2005
Posts: 19537
Location: Wales bound with Rachel...
FS Record: OFL Champions League Sprint finalist 10/11
Confusion over Bathroom work... I thought for a minute you meant you went for a wee and did a number 2!

Anyway. What's the point in the builder giving a cost if it doesn't include everything? He surely must have stated "plus materials" or suggested that your friend would be supplying the materials. If he didn't say "plus materials" then the builder must realise she would have almost certainly asked "does that include everything".

If it isn't written down, then it is a bit of a stalemate and so some compromise needs agreeing.


Top
 Profile WWW FPL Team Page  
 
 Post subject: Re: Confusion over Bathroom work
PostPosted: 05 Jul 2011, 12:49 
Offline
FISO Knight
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 13 2005
Posts: 13385
Location: Location! Location!
Blog: View Blog (2)
FS Record: TFFOSM MotW in 2008 and MotM in 2003. 78th overall in TFFO for 2002/3 and 2003/4
If it's a verbal quote then she is stuffed.


Top
 Profile FPL Team Page  
 
 Post subject: Re: Confusion over Bathroom work
PostPosted: 05 Jul 2011, 12:53 
Offline
FISO Knight
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 13 2005
Posts: 19537
Location: Wales bound with Rachel...
FS Record: OFL Champions League Sprint finalist 10/11
Surprised wrote:
If it's a verbal quote then she is stuffed.

Surely 50/50? He should have written it down, she should have requested it written down. Is it seen differently legally, though?


Top
 Profile WWW FPL Team Page  
 
 Post subject: Re: Confusion over Bathroom work
PostPosted: 05 Jul 2011, 12:56 
Offline
Dunkledore
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 26 2007
Posts: 6935
Location: South West England.
FS Record: Pick Quick Winner 2010-11..........£420 total in winnings from mini cash leagues over the years
Jonathan wrote:
Surprised wrote:
If it's a verbal quote then she is stuffed.

Surely 50/50? He should have written it down, she should have requested it written down. Is it seen differently legally, though?


IMO it's all her fault for not demanding that it was in writing somewhere. I don't understand why you say "he should have written it down". The emphasis is on her shirley!?


Top
 Profile FPL Team Page  
 
 Post subject: Re: Confusion over Bathroom work
PostPosted: 05 Jul 2011, 13:06 
Online
Grumpy Old Man

Joined: Thu Oct 13 2005
Posts: 3266
Location: Clifton,Bristol
FS Record: Would be alot better but for Andy L & E !
I think because he has done work b4 which was ok and no problems she didnt ask for a written quotation .
Also they went to the shop together to look at the stuff and he said it would cost 1k but in the end he spent 1600 - should he have cleared this increase with her first?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Confusion over Bathroom work
PostPosted: 05 Jul 2011, 13:13 
Offline
FISO Knight
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 13 2005
Posts: 19537
Location: Wales bound with Rachel...
FS Record: OFL Champions League Sprint finalist 10/11
Richt wrote:
Jonathan wrote:
Surprised wrote:
If it's a verbal quote then she is stuffed.

Surely 50/50? He should have written it down, she should have requested it written down. Is it seen differently legally, though?


IMO it's all her fault for not demanding that it was in writing somewhere. I don't understand why you say "he should have written it down". The emphasis is on her shirley!?

Because of good will, not getting himself into this situation, and as the professional doing this every day, it should be automatic for him.

Edit: However, I agree that she probably will need to pay up.


Top
 Profile WWW FPL Team Page  
 
 Post subject: Re: Confusion over Bathroom work
PostPosted: 05 Jul 2011, 13:17 
Offline
FISO Knight
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 13 2005
Posts: 13385
Location: Location! Location!
Blog: View Blog (2)
FS Record: TFFOSM MotW in 2008 and MotM in 2003. 78th overall in TFFO for 2002/3 and 2003/4
The Bear wrote:
I think because he has done work b4 which was ok and no problems she didnt ask for a written quotation .
Also they went to the shop together to look at the stuff and he said it would cost 1k but in the end he spent 1600 - should he have cleared this increase with her first?


Yes he should and had he done so then it would have been clear that materials were not included. It is partly his fault and as a poster has mentioned, they need to look at the past jobs. If they were all in then she has a case.


Top
 Profile FPL Team Page  
 
 Post subject: Re: Confusion over Bathroom work
PostPosted: 05 Jul 2011, 13:23 
Offline
FISO Jedi Knight
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 13 2005
Posts: 37019
Location: .. he thinks that he knows something which he doesn't, whereas I am quite concious of my ignorance.
The fact that they went shopping together would imply that she was paying.

Bathrooms and kitchens tend to be quoted with installation separate, as customers pick the contents; plastering walls etc are more likely to be all-in, as the customer does not pick the plaster.... decorators tend to use the customers products, except for undercoats I would assume.


Top
 Profile WWW FPL Team Page  
 
 Post subject: Re: Confusion over Bathroom work
PostPosted: 06 Jul 2011, 12:41 
Offline
Grumpy Old Man
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 01 2010
Posts: 2816
Location: Amsterdam
How long did the job take? How many men were working on the job?

Then you need to look at how long the previous project took and work out a rough amount per day. If the £3K of work, knock off the cost of materials, is similar to the daily rate from last time then you know he's having you on.

Alternatively, the job may have taken longer than he expected and now wants extra money to cover this and is using the materials line.

Finally, if this was going to be done with cash? If so, ask the builder for full receipts. including all material receipts and his company bank account details (refuse to pay to a personal account but only to a business account) and that the transfer will be made online. With VAT and income tax, it should persuade him to keep to the original quote as he'll pay out what the same in taxes that he'll make with cash)


Top
 Profile FPL Team Page  
 
 Post subject: Re: Confusion over Bathroom work
PostPosted: 06 Jul 2011, 14:58 
Offline
Grumpy Old Man
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 10 2008
Posts: 3454
Location: LA => HK
FS Record: £15K profit from OFL, Fantasy League Classic 08/09 Champion, Champions League 06/07 Overall Winner, EURO2008 Phase Two Winner, 9 time OFL Manager of the Week
Jonathan wrote:
Confusion over Bathroom work... I thought for a minute you meant you went for a wee and did a number 2!

Anyway. What's the point in the builder giving a cost if it doesn't include everything? He surely must have stated "plus materials" or suggested that your friend would be supplying the materials. If he didn't say "plus materials" then the builder must realise she would have almost certainly asked "does that include everything".

If it isn't written down, then it is a bit of a stalemate and so some compromise needs agreeing.


:shock: :shock: :shock:

That's creative work there Jonothon! Hope that idea wasn't based on experience...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Confusion over Bathroom work
PostPosted: 06 Jul 2011, 20:06 
Offline
Dumbledore
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 13 2005
Posts: 5219
Location: Outside, fighting 3 big fellas and drinking beer at the same time.
Kdub wrote:
Jonathan wrote:
Confusion over Bathroom work... I thought for a minute you meant you went for a wee and did a number 2!


That's creative work there Jonothon! Hope that idea wasn't based on experience...


Oh come on. We've all done it.

Haven't wee?


Top
 Profile WWW  
 
 Post subject: Re: Confusion over Bathroom work
PostPosted: 06 Jul 2011, 20:41 
Offline
Grumpy Old Man
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 21 2006
Posts: 4392
Location: Unbeaten Land
FS Record: Unbeaten
Well, id say if he didn't give a quote its his problem for not stating what was to be paid for. Surely you need reciepts and quotes to pay income tax? Ask X-man, but her word against his, if work has been done without quote, he can't do anything about it, as he didn't say how much it was going to cost in writing. For all a court knows, your friend was under the impression it was being done for free out of the kindness of his heart, with her paying for materials.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Confusion over Bathroom work
PostPosted: 17 Jul 2011, 12:28 
Offline
Grumpy Old Man
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 26 2008
Posts: 1026
FS Record: Raw Power
A verbal contract is just as legally binding as a written one but the problems start when there's a dispute and if there's nothing in writing it's very difficult, for either side, to prove what was originally agreed. I'd suggest that the only practical way forward is for the parties to try to reach a negotiated settlement.


Top
 Profile FPL Team Page  
 
 Post subject: Re: Confusion over Bathroom work
PostPosted: 17 Jul 2011, 12:33 
Offline
Grumpy Old Man
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 10 2009
Posts: 3432
Location: The King of FISO!!!
Or threaten to bring in Melinda Messinger and Dominic Littlewood to deal with him.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Confusion over Bathroom work
PostPosted: 17 Jul 2011, 12:54 
Offline
FISO Jedi Knight
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 13 2005
Posts: 37019
Location: .. he thinks that he knows something which he doesn't, whereas I am quite concious of my ignorance.
AMc wrote:
A verbal contract is just as legally binding as a written one but the problems start when there's a dispute and if there's nothing in writing it's very difficult, for either side, to prove what was originally agreed. I'd suggest that the only practical way forward is for the parties to try to reach a negotiated settlement.


He could always take the suite back :wink:


Top
 Profile WWW FPL Team Page  
 
 Post subject: Re: Confusion over Bathroom work
PostPosted: 17 Jul 2011, 13:25 
Offline
Grumpy Old Man
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 26 2008
Posts: 1026
FS Record: Raw Power
blahblah wrote:
AMc wrote:
A verbal contract is just as legally binding as a written one but the problems start when there's a dispute and if there's nothing in writing it's very difficult, for either side, to prove what was originally agreed. I'd suggest that the only practical way forward is for the parties to try to reach a negotiated settlement.


He could always take the suite back :wink:


Yes, but only if they allow him free access to their home.


Top
 Profile FPL Team Page  
 
 Post subject: Re: Confusion over Bathroom work
PostPosted: 17 Jul 2011, 13:36 
Offline
FISO Jedi Knight
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 13 2005
Posts: 37019
Location: .. he thinks that he knows something which he doesn't, whereas I am quite concious of my ignorance.
The Police may help with that, if he is reclaiming his property :?


Top
 Profile WWW FPL Team Page  
 
 Post subject: Re: Confusion over Bathroom work
PostPosted: 17 Jul 2011, 13:39 
Offline
Grumpy Old Man
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 10 2009
Posts: 3432
Location: The King of FISO!!!
You can't really keep something if you have not paid for it, so I'm on the side of the builder however dubious he may be.
Otherwise we would have people everywhere getting building work carried out and not paying for it.

On the other hand the builder is at fault for not providing a comprehensive quote to the customer and the customer should have asked for one.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Confusion over Bathroom work
PostPosted: 17 Jul 2011, 13:57 
Offline
Grumpy Old Man
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 26 2008
Posts: 1026
FS Record: Raw Power
blahblah wrote:
The Police may help with that, if he is reclaiming his property :?


Not that clear cut, the Police can't just take one side if there's a dispute. They'd be more likely to encourage the parties to reach an agreement themselves.


Top
 Profile FPL Team Page  
 
 Post subject: Re: Confusion over Bathroom work
PostPosted: 17 Jul 2011, 14:41 
Offline
Grumpy Old Man
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 26 2008
Posts: 1026
FS Record: Raw Power
Achiles74 wrote:
You can't really keep something if you have not paid for it, so I'm on the side of the builder however dubious he may be.
Otherwise we would have people everywhere getting building work carried out and not paying for it.

On the other hand the builder is at fault for not providing a comprehensive quote to the customer and the customer should have asked for one.


Mrs Mc has gone out for the day and left me on my tod. FPL still hasn't launched so it's either emptying the dishwasher or replying to this thread. On that basis....

Where goods are supplied to a customer, the passing of ownership, unless otherwise stated, is generally deemed to have occurred where both parties intend the passing of ownership to take place: usually at the delivery stage. So, only when a 'retention clause' is specifically stipulated in the Terms & Conditions of Sale & Service, does payment become the point at which ownership passes to the customer.

In the situation mentioned in the OP, the customer can hardly have agreed to a retention clause if they did not know about it until after they accepted the goods and may have grounds for retaining possession of the goods in a dispute situation. To avoid such a situation the builder should provide a copy of his trading terms together with a written quote at an early stage of the proceedings.

I'm even boring myself now...


Top
 Profile FPL Team Page  
 
 Post subject: Re: Confusion over Bathroom work
PostPosted: 17 Jul 2011, 14:44 
Offline
FISO Jedi Knight
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 13 2005
Posts: 37019
Location: .. he thinks that he knows something which he doesn't, whereas I am quite concious of my ignorance.
I thought the goods only changed hands when payment was made.


Top
 Profile WWW FPL Team Page  
 
 Post subject: Re: Confusion over Bathroom work
PostPosted: 17 Jul 2011, 14:51 
Offline
Grumpy Old Man
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 10 2009
Posts: 3432
Location: The King of FISO!!!
blahblah wrote:
I thought the goods only changed hands when payment was made.



I guess strictly speaking that if you order a new bathroom and get a builder to put in the new bathroon then the goods have changed hands once the bathroom is in place regardless of payment.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Confusion over Bathroom work
PostPosted: 17 Jul 2011, 15:14 
Offline
FISO Jedi Knight
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 13 2005
Posts: 37019
Location: .. he thinks that he knows something which he doesn't, whereas I am quite concious of my ignorance.
Strictly speaking it is wrong to open and eat a pack of biscuits in a Supermarket, and then pay for them.


Top
 Profile WWW FPL Team Page  
 
 Post subject: Re: Confusion over Bathroom work
PostPosted: 17 Jul 2011, 15:23 
Offline
Grumpy Old Man
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 10 2009
Posts: 3432
Location: The King of FISO!!!
blahblah wrote:
Strictly speaking it is wrong to open and eat a pack of biscuits in a Supermarket, and then pay for them.


What about eating grapes in a supermarket before you have paid for them?


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Bookmark and Share
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 40 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: