i am sure some people were very pleased to see this introduced. i personally have no problem with it, the games designers do as they please and we decide whether to take part or not.

i trust that having implemented this rule that the games organisers will disqualify anyone flouting the rule in fairness to those that have kept to the rules.

i gather of the two main players that clever.tv will disqualify, and i think ofl have done so, hoping gfm keep it clean too and would suggest that rather than anyone posting suspicions that they e-mail the organisers - GFM from memory.

andy

I'll second that Andy.

I stuck my ten teams in and am really looking forward to this game as the ten teams give a more level playing field and wont require too much time to stay on top of them.

However the leaderboard is already showing one particular player name numerous times, and on top of that he appears to have a sex change change since last year.

I've had a very average start but i'd like to keep my interest up in this game, hopefully i wont be spoilt by people breaking the rules.

Getting sick of what I believe is going on in games with limited entries per person or prizes per person.

One of the first games to have a limit of one prize per person was the Times Champions League game in 2006. From some naive team numbering it was obvious that one person was managing teams under 4 names.

On enquiring about this to one of the them I was informed they were managing teams for the others who had invested money. Unfortunately the Times at time could not care less about their game and took no action. Luckily only one prize was won by this group of 4 people and no-one who managed their own teams lost out.

Prizes in the Scottish Sun this season, both overall and monthly, are limited to one person, and yet already on the leaderboard we have several teams under 3 of the the names and a relation of the other.

In YTM 2 of these names make several apperances near the top of the table and their minileague threatens for major prizes despite unique user rules.

And now in Times game, with entries limited per person, suddenly a sex change of one of them pops up on the leaderboard.

Maybe all of this season's game entries by this syndicate are honest and true. Maybe not.

I hope game providers have the true power to judge and the balls to back up the terms and conditions they impose on their games, otherwise they are useless and just serve as a magnet for those who seek to abuse them and basically defraud others.

Has this guy.women been removed from the game yet?

A couple of my sides have shot up a bit this week, just not sure whether its down to my own remarkable managerial abilities, or through The Times getting their act together and giving everyone else a fair chance

That said, only a handful of my teams are in the top 1000........
Speaking of which, any further news of a FISO minileague for this one, and the cut off point?
I know we are all waiting to see which of our teams will be the one to enter so I suppose nothing much to do for a few weeks at least.

Having a look at the current leaderboard, I can see what appears to be 19 teams under different names, all of which may well be managed by the same player.....It is clear to me and obviously to others on here (Neil, Andy etc) that rule breaking is taking place.....Why on earth cant the Times get this sorted out.....

A good game about to be ruined by The Times not removing multi-entrant rule breakers.....

Come on you guys at The Times, 'chuck them out now' and let the rest of us enjoy what is IMHO a really good FF game.

John

John, which teams are you referring to........and who is behind them? How can you prove this is the case?
Perplexed
Randal

I'm sure we are talking about a Croatian influence on the leaderboards?

Again. How disappointing. Told the fawning gimps on fiso that the words hero and worship are not to be found on the dalmatian coast. Surely someone here has the ear of the times

the times have in the past proven themselves the masters of disdain and incompetence when it comes to running ff games, but this is run by gfm.

gfm have created crass and unworkable rules that have been a blight on fantasy footy. a well known fantasy player called me earlier on and said 'isn't it amazing how women do so much better on the leaderboard in these limited entry games' and of course he is right over 90% will be cheating with someone else running the teams.

gfm have created a major problem here all of their own doing and whilst murph has gamely come on here and tried to sort things out i think gfm have lost all credibility over this issue and their refusal to stop 'cheating' in the spirit of the game means that those playing the games according to the rules are being cheated by none other than gfm.

regarding zoran i've been lucky enough to have a meal with him and some of his friends and i will say that i know his friends watch a lot of games and help zoran by providing their views on the games, so it is quite possible that either some or all of the teams based in croatia are not managed by zoran. i've not spoken to him about it and feel no need to.

the problem lies fairly and squarely with gfm who have produced crass rules that they appear to have no interest in enforcing nor do they (unlike cyki) have any idea how to enforce them.

as i have said previously i consider gfm one of the very best providers of fantasy footy games, but they have in my view got this almost unbelievably badly wrong and i could see it resulting in a court case in one of their games if they get unlucky.

i am pretty sure the metro would be horrified if they knew what was going on.

andy

maybe its time to stop posting; like ships in the night one's comments are constantly misconstrued.
Lordy lordy after this constant banging the drum 12345678 against gfm everyone I assume knows they are running this game. The point is..do the Times know they are running it badly. Would the Times be happy with how they have been represented and would they force gfm to take action if they knew what many on here suspect.
As for dinners....agh whats the point.......Croatia has suddenly become interested in The Times and YTM and female croatia at that

not sure what was misconstrued?

the times have plenty of previous, look through previous forums. they would not be interested unless there has been a huge sea change there.

i do have some sympathy with gfm as previously stated as i can understand their objectives, but the way in which they have handled things remains distasteful, unfair and incompetent in my own view of things.

andy

Presumably GFM have the contact details of the suspect ladies. A telephone call enquiring as to transfer tactics etc. might result in an interesting conversation - or perhaps not

Hi Andy,

I've been reading your many posts on this topic and the same situation with multiple teams on the metro leaderboards.

We are all speculating and have suspicions about the various mr/mrs/brother/sister combos on the different leaderboards, but from an onlookers point of view all these are hard to prove. Some will be genuine, many will not.

What i did find surprising though was that on your metro posts you were hard on certain individuals you believed were flaunting the rules and said that you had contacted GFM about them. Yet when the same question marks have been put about the croatian entries here, you have been defensive of them in your post and said you dont really question it.

I appreciate its a difficult scenerio because you are actually know them on a social basis, but from an outsiders point of view I see no difference between what they appear to be doing in the times as to what others are doing in the metro game so they should be treated equally as under suspicion of flaunting the rules.

Geoff

hi geoff,

i understand where you are coming from as i know zoran. there is also some background to some of the other entries.

as a gambling man i'd bet all are flouting the rules.

the difference with zoran is that i know some of his friends have a genuine interest in epl football as i have met them and know they watch games when zoran can't cover all the bases and let him know what they think of certain players, whether they all do i don't know and yes i doubt that all the wives are footy fans and the spirit of the rules would therefore be broken by them. what i said was it wasn't my job to question their entries or indeed others i have suspicions about - that is for gfm to do if the entry limit rule has any point.

the point re some of the others is the names are clear collusions (team names) and the wives clearly don't play.

the point as you say is the rule is to at least some extent unenforceable thus becomes a 'cheats charter' so shouldn't be there. cyki use a variety of methods for disqualification but i think this limiting method is unsatisfactory and completely unfair on most players and needs dropping.

i haven't reported anyone to gfm from memory (that wasn't the main gist anyway) but i said to them effectively does this rule stand or not, because if you won't enforce it i will do the same.

i actually said if i enter teams in my partners name will you disqualify them and they refused to answer that question and have continually sat on the fence.

gfm are good games providers but have got this continually badly wrong and have shown great ineptitude in failing to think things through in my opinion.

i understand your points, but i have said that if there is a suspicion of multi entries gfm need to decide whether they wish to enforce the rule or whether it is not relevant (in which case it should be removed) and i have always maintained this applies equally whether you are in england, croatia, ireland or elsewhere.

so i hope that clears it up, my gripe is with gfm because they have handled this very badly and if they have no intention of enforcing their t&c (the rules then shouldn't be there) then i don't think you can blame people for breaking them. the leaderboards in this type of game have far more women on the leaderboard than non limited entries and there is therefore clear cheating/flouting of the rules is going on as the mix is too different.

if a likely multi entry wins i don't think they can have any complaints if someone in 2nd takes them to court.

my real gripe is therefore their refusal to answer very straight questions and i do think they have brought fantasy footy into disrepute by putting in rules they have no clue whatsoever about what to do with themselves.

andy

thanks for your reply andy.

it all goes back to what you said in your original post, theres not much point us continually posting here, instead it's about emailing the organisers with any complaints... and yes im guilty of posting instead of emailing, doh

hi geoff,

agreed, apart from letting people know what is going on.

murph has tried i believe and i did prior to the launch of the metro CL game, but unless they tell us their stance we have no way of knowing, so with the times you are paying not knowing whether t&c will be adhered to.

i think they have decided to try and have their cake and eat it. e.g. avoiding mass multis by the limits but allowing backdoor multis. so they limit huge multis but disadvantage anyone keeping to the t&c.

although murph has tried his best i don't think the people at gfm making the decisions are big enough to come on here and explain what the real position re this limit rule is which is a great shame despite his best efforts.

i really can't see the likes of tom hope at clever.tv doing this, so i think the criticism of gfm for bringing their games into disrepute in this way is fair.

andy

Is this a different clever.tv to the ones who are running "You The Manager", where there is entry criteria and limits on places per person in the top 5 of a minileague for prizes, who, when I asked them to confirm how they police people entering under different names to get round such criteria - and in particular my concerns over Minileague "Croatia", refused to respond to 3 separate emails I sent on the subject?

Is it also the a different clever.tv who let an employee lead the TFF Euro 2008 game for several days into the latter stages of the contest?

No bringing of their games into disrepute then!

gfm are by no means the only people letting game players down with terms and conditions they cannot police or back up when it comes to the crunch, and unless things are changed, fantasy football as far as limited entry - and potentially a lot of the free games out there - is heading towards pure farce that will probably mean a lot of the games dying.

Andy, I'm astounded that you have no words of condemnation for Zoran - friend of yours or not - if, as seems blatantly clear from the Times leaderboard - he abuses the rules so freely, and not for the first time. As in society there must be some kind of responsibility placed on the game players. If I leave a window open in my house is it okay for Zoran to come along and nick my TV? And just because I know load of mates who all watch football and talk about it with me is it okay for me to enter teams under their names? - which seemed to be part of your justification for Zoran.

I'm sure if games got enough correspondence from game players on the issue - and what they deem to be blatant cheating, then they would look more into the issues, especially if the same name(s) kept being mentioned. But unless we try and do something about this it will only escalate.

Would be good for Zoran to come on here and take the opportunity to state he is not managing these teams. He is still opening his private messages so clearly still accesses FISO.

hi neil,

agree the tff euro thing was an error of judgement, i thought they had acknowledged that.

as far as the croatian minileague goes, i don't really pay much attention to minis as i think they are a joke and open to abuse, although amusingly your post has just reminded me i need to enter the fiso tff mini by midnight

so i'd prefer not to comment further on minis other than the view expressed above.

as far as any abuse of this or the times goes i maintain it is up to the organisers.

if gfm refuse to enforce their t&c they effectively become null and void anyway and they just become an obstacle to huge multis. they have refused when asked to explain what they would do about multis.

i asked clever.tv what they would do re the guardian and their resonse was disqualification. a very clear different response.

i haven't spoken to zoran since the beginning of the season when i told him i thought it was a bit of a joke that people thought he was retiring from ff.

if gfm refuse to disqualify or are unable to do so i agree with you that you might as well enter under as many names as possible as that has effectively become the rule. i also agree with you that this makes a farce of things. i also agree with you it could lead to a loss of competitions, my main reason for wanting to 'nip it in the bud'

whilst i can understand your frustration with clever.tv it is likely they (or anyone else) won't discuss specific entries but i'd suggest you get in touch with them and ask to speak with tom yourself if they have been ignoring e-mail.

all the best,

andy

neil,

i'm not prepared to condemn zoran as it's not up to me.

i know his friends have been helping him with fantasy footy for some time and whilst zoran will clearly have passed on a lot of his ideas to them which would result in a good performance it is difficult to say who is managing any teams for absolute certain. i do agree the women's names are fishy though.

however if the times found changes to be made at the same time from the same ip and other similarities i think they would have reasonable grounds for disqualification of any entries.

if someone breaks into your house you'd report it to the police and if they have evidence of who has done it they prosecute.

similarly here it's up to the organisers and i think that if they applied the above criteria they should be able to disqualify sensibly if that is their intent as cyki do.

the problem is gfm refuse to say what they intend doing!

andy

That does seem a bit of a cop out about Zoran to be honest Andy.

I was always one of the people who defended him when he did so well in YTM. The fact is you pays your money and takes your chance and that still doesn't guarantee the kind of success hes had.

But the fact is hes making a mockery of various different games whith his multi entries under different names. His entries are no less fishy than all of the Mrs' on the leaderboard.

Even if his friends did have decent football knowledge that wouldn't guarantee them being on the leaderboard in every competition they enter. They've taken over the Times, You The Manager and even the Scottish Sun and they're near the top in all of them. And not just one of his "friends" but ALL of them.

The fact is its 99.9% certain that they're cheating.

I guess theres not much that can be done about it but lets not give too much credit to someone who in this case is taking us for fools.

down with Zoran... down with the team Dinos. it's ruining fantasy football... i know personally because i had to slay the beast myself during EURO 2008 to win a phase prize.

as i say it's up to gfm - they have never made their rules plain, i've always assumed one entry per person means i can only manage 10 in the times for example or whatever that limit might be.

as i said above i actually asked gfm if they would disqualify teams entered in my other halfs name and they refused to answer the question, so it is possible we are bleating about nothing and the intention of gfm is that you can enter in your own name or indeed anyone else prepared for you to represent their interests.

if you can get a definitive answer from gfm you will certainly beat me as i have given up trying to get an answer from them and as far as i am concerned you now have carte blanche to enter as many multiples of their entry limit as long as you do this in unique names.

it is a shame they didn't make this clear in their t&c or we could have all bunged in a few more entries

obviously now we know you seem to be allowed to do this we will all be putting in extra entries next year.

if anyone else realised gfm were allowing this loophole i guess we just have to hold our hands up and say good luck to them

it seems we have been had not by zoran or all the non fantasy playing other halves but by gfm themselves

andy

Thanks for your reply Andy. I appreciate your answers, but you skirted round my analogy of someone nicking my TV if I leave my window open. I didn't ask what you do - I asked if it was right for the person to do it. Forget whether its my fault for leaving my window open, or the police's fault for not enforcing the law - is it right for him to steal it?

I wonder how you would feel at your next meal with Zoran if it is you he has deprived of a major prize.

i think neil,

1) as just stated we don't know what the rules are

2) gfm are the ones who should be doing the prosecuting as would the police.

on other levels i don't think the analogy works - sorry

if one of zoran's friends win and gfm allowed it to stand i'd say well done to them and ask them what they intend spending the dosh on!

if gfm end up with a court case in the scenario outlined taken by someone who feels they have been deprived of a prize by gfm failing to enforce their t&c then that is clearly a risk they take.

if gfm allowed it to stand and particularly ALL of the ladies on the leaderboard i'd make a lot of entries in other peoples names next year as that would obviously have become the accepted allowable means of entry.

andy

Unfortunately the only the way to stop this happening next year is to scrap the 10 per player limit - which will be a pity because I personally find that a good number of teams to manage if everyone else is in the same boat!
Of course I can then see the game being run along the same lines as the Mirror (in terms of Super Mulit entry) where for me all the enjoyment has gone out and its just hard graft!!

i agree to a large extent bruce, but cyki disqualifications on a variety of factors and common sense is possible.

none of us have any idea if we get the prize if we finish 2nd to an apparent multi entry.

neither does the multi entry winner have any idea if they will be disqualified at the end.

all i am saying is that this should NEVER have happened.

andy

They could still fix it now. Just get rid of all of Zorans teams except those in his name.

Its too late to do it at the end of the season or to let him choose which ones he keeps and which ones he gets rid of.

Just delete all the excess teams from the game. The fact everyone knows hes abusing the rules (hes even admitted it himself).

They're setting themselves up for trouble at the end.

His sheer number of teams, not to mention his incredible skill give him so many options to take gambles that players with ten teams can't take.

Theres a lot of money at stake here. Not just the 50,000 but also the mini league money which he also looks like winning.

I'm doing pretty poorly in this game. I won't win but i feel sorry for those people who do have a chance. Its just not right.

But as i said its easily fixed. Let him take the Times to court from over there in Croatia, ultimately it would take him a lot of time and money and he'd probably lose, especially when he knows hes in the wrong himself.

Just remove all "his" excess teams now and disqualify his mini leagues.

Very simple.

not quite so simple there are multi entries in other gfm games too and i doubt this is the only potential instance in the times.

bruce highlights the problem well.

i do strongly agree that it should be all teams managed by someone other than the owner if they go down that route, although personally i'd disqualify the lot of any multi entry but i think it should have been done ages ago and they are now setting themselves and the times (not for the first time) up to be in an incredibly invideous position and have tarnished gfm's image badly and also even the already incredibly inept and tarnished times.

the problem is the shoddily written gfm rules and their love of hiding under the covers rather than facing up to the obvious problems inherent in their rules.

andy

Yes, I'm not a human, I'm alien who can manage thousands of teams without sleeping, 24 hours on day I play FF, I have crystal ball and I know the future, I know who will scored and who will keep clean sheet! I don't need thousands of teams, I can win all the games play with only one, but I enetered it just about make you nervous, because I'm really bad guy

Now seriously: oldbgead, I can't stop you or anybody else to write lies here about me. But I have to answer from time to time because this posts reading a lots of people and without any words from me almost everybody will think that I'm some kind of fantasy gangster and swindler.

My statement:

I play Times FF 0809 with my 10 teams and I manage only my 10 teams.
I play Times FF 100% according the rules and terms and conditions.
I don't manage any other Times FF team.
Am I give advice to anybody else, or am I take advice from someone else about FF is my business only.


Good luck to all of FISO'ers and especially good luck to my friends

Zoran

wanna "adopt" me for next year?.... I'm crap